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  Shoun became a teacher of Soto Zen. When he was still a student his father passed away, leaving him to care for his old mother. Whenever Shoun went to a meditation hall he always took his mother with him. Since she accompanied him, when... continue...

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→→→→ vertical line TOPIC: NOTHING PERSONAL
vertical line Posted on Aug.23.2013 @ 08:28PM EDT by Avisitor
This forum is for those who wish to learn or talk about Zen Buddhism.
Although I don't always agree with Alan, I find that he is fair in his warnings and his actions.

It isn't an attack on someone when a person ask if you have a teacher or do Zazen or have a Sangha.
It is trying to assess where one is at or where one's opinions come from.
I am sorry if anyone believes it is an attack.

It is neither bad nor good that one is with a teacher or not.
We all have different situations.
Talking about ourselves lets another person know where our opinions comes from.
And lets other better understand what those opinions mean.
After all, we are trying to learn from one another's experience and knowledge.
Go to Latest Reply   Reply to this Topic   Email Avisitor
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Reply from *CSEe*
Aug.23.2013
10:14PM EDT 
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Base on my experiences in so many Buddhism website , I have a very strong reason to believe that many people treat me very negetively after they found out that I never have any teacher or read much of Buddhism text or understand all the difficult terminology used in Buddhism studies ......all my understanding is considered by them is false / delution / mis-leading /wrong etc .........I not allow to challenge their view or to discuss .....they cant accept it ...............and soon they even report me to be ban from the website ..............

I was banned from more than 8 Buddhism website............

Many people in Buddhism website are " self claim master" or atleast they have strong faith that their beliefs are the truth ........they seems eager to teach me , to get me agree with them but when I presented my views many feel challenged , some even send me private messege ask me to leave the forum ............why ???????

I never care where you found your understanding , I never interested whether you learn Buddhism from Dalai Lama or Osama Bin Laden .....I am just interested in your current condition , your current realization ...........I do not interested whether you drive here , or take a jet fly here , or swim here or crawl here...you are here ....so I am just interested in you not your teacher , not Siddharta ..........

So to me is never important and I never interested to find out where one obtained his understanding ........to me all being is a teacher but I will never have any reason to teach .............

Perhaps this is human culture......if one drive a BMW , he must be rich .....if Bill Gates wear a 10 Dollors watch , people believe it worth millions but if a homeless wear a 1000 Dollors watch , people will believe it must be a rubbish ...that human .....

In Buddhism , is all about ownselve . If you think as a human , to be a human , you will always be a human as you know it , wishing to be the human as you wish to be ........

Buddhism perhaps is beyond culture , beyond knowledge , beyond right and wrong , beyond true or false , beyond good or bad ..............so dear friend , lets have a clear mind and discuss / debate  our understanding for own learning ..........

Sincerely

CSEe ( Ee Chuan Seng) ,

Malacca , Malaysia . 

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Reply from leoj99
Aug.24.2013
01:18AM EDT 
vertical line Well even if  you don't tell me about yourself I think I know where are you coming from.... LOL
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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.24.2013
10:38AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "

Base on my experiences in so many Buddhism website , I have a very strong reason to believe that many people treat me very negetively after they found out that I never have any teacher or read much of Buddhism text or understand all the difficult terminology used in Buddhism studies ......all my understanding is considered by them is false / delution / mis-leading /wrong etc .........I not allow to challenge their view or to discuss .....they cant accept it ...............and soon they even report me to be ban from the website ..............


I was banned from more than 8 Buddhism website............


...

Sincerely


CSEe ( Ee Chuan Seng) ,


Malacca , Malaysia . 

"
.........

Since you have no teacher and have not read anything about Buddhism then how can you claim to know anything about Buddhism??
It makes your claims about your belief in Buddhism to be in serious doubt.
Then, refusing to learn because you have your own beliefs just makes for an adversarial conditions.

If you want to have a discussion about Buddhism then please learn a bit more about it.
Technical terms are not the mainstay of Buddhism.
Practice and learning are.
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Reply from *CSEe*
Aug.25.2013
02:55AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
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Dear Avisitor , you said I quote "Since you have no teacher and have not read anything about Buddhism then how can you claim to know anything about Buddhism??
It makes your claims about your belief in Buddhism to be in serious doubt." un-quote

Perhaps is not how long you learn from a teacher or how you commited to have a teacher or how much you know from books about Buddhism ...perhaps is one realization of it . You see dear Avisitor , there are perhaps trillions method , trillions ways one realize Buddhism .......and to have a teacher or to read tons of books is just one of the trillions .....from my understanding of Mr Siddharta's words " emptiness & awake" had indeed explained to me my existence , the cause of my joy/suffering and the end of me .....so is not an issue how you understand Buddhism ...but is your current understanding that I interested .

Dear Avisitor , perhaps have "a serious doubt" is part of Buddhism , is never a limitation but is a factor to move into greater realization .......I always in doubt and thats Buddhism ..........faith is travelling further journey into Buddhism not the key into Buddhism ........ lets debate .

you said i quote "Then, refusing to learn because you have your own beliefs just makes for an adversarial conditions." un-quote

Sorry . do you have problem understanding my writing ?

I have said hundreds if not thousand of time I am here to learn ...if I do not agree with you this does not mean that I refuse to learn but perhaps I still have not reach your level of understanding or I will never understand you .....that does not mean I refuse to learn ........I challenge you for a debate for my learning process NOT to get you to agree with me ....please understand me okey .



You said , I quote "If you want to have a discussion about Buddhism then please learn a bit more about it.
Technical terms are not the mainstay of Buddhism.
Practice and learning are." un-quote

Perhaps is you who had already stick to your understanding and will never change ..sorry if this seems rude .......

dear Avisitor , learning knowledge by reading the history of Siddharta is perhaps a tiny little part of Buddhism understanding .......and perhaps Buddhism is much-much more beyond what you had read ...so perhaps you should move from your knowledge and progress further ......again sorry if I am rude .

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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.25.2013
08:54AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line You do have an understanding ... but it is not quite Buddhism.
We both agree there is more to Buddhism than just precepts and technical terms.
However, our ideas are far apart when it comes to awakening.
You look for the conceptual realization.
When it is experiential that matters most.
There are many ways to reach this understanding, realization, experience.
But, Zen Buddhism is about the expedient method of meditation ... Zazen.
And not discussion or debate about Buddhism.
Learning about Buddhism and the Dharma .. while practicing Zazen gives us the wisdom to understand.

The people on the other websites do as I do .. in that they learn about Buddhism and practice its methods.
You profess your understand of Buddhism without having any education in Buddhism nor do you practice its methods.
So who is not open minded to learn??
You profess your understanding of Buddhism comes from realization of two words spoken by Buddha. Awake and emptiness.
How is that Buddhism??

No, I believe there is no need to discuss Buddhism with you.
You will only use the opportunity to reinforce your own beliefs and not hear any words I have said.
Please have a good life and maybe read a book or two about Buddhism,
Or even have the realization that there is more to Buddhism than is dreamed of in your philosophy .... hahaha.
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Reply from *CSEe*
Aug.25.2013
11:51AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
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Dear Avisitor , you said : "You do have an understanding ... but it is not quite Buddhism.
We both agree there is more to Buddhism than just precepts and technical terms.
However, our ideas are far apart when it comes to awakening." Un-quote

So what is your version of Buddhism ? care to discuss it ? Care to debate about it ? The so call " idea" that I have about Buddhism is from my understanding from siddharta words reflect on my experiences / emotions ....I am awaken from my dream by his words ..........


You said , I quote " You look for the conceptual realization.
When it is experiential that matters most." un-quote

Where you got this idea that I am looking for something ????


You said " There are many ways to reach this understanding, realization, experience.
But, Zen Buddhism is about the expedient method of meditation ... Zazen.
And not discussion or debate about Buddhism.
Learning about Buddhism and the Dharma .. while practicing Zazen gives us the wisdom to understand.

The people on the other websites do as I do .. in that they learn about Buddhism and practice its methods.
You profess your understand of Buddhism without having any education in Buddhism nor do you practice its methods.
So who is not open minded to learn?? Un-quote

If I dont feel the need to follow others , this never mean that I am ego / proud of my style ...simply because the method of my understanding is different ...each and every living have its journey into self liberation .......Dear Avisitor , be fair to yourself ...cant you understand that so far I am the one begging you for a debate for my own learning process .....but is you who always avoiding it ...........so why do you keep having desire to create a bad image of me ? Why you let yourself creating me in your mind ? ....face me and lets debate ........how " open minded" can a person be if he even challenge you for a debate .......?


You said " You profess your understanding of Buddhism comes from realization of two words spoken by Buddha. Awake and emptiness.
How is that Buddhism??Un-quote

Perhaps nothing is outside Buddhism so regardless what you do , still that is part of Buddhism ........so Dear Avisitor in my current understanding , every one , everything is Buddhism .........Osama killings , Dalai Lama words , your emotions towards me , my understanding ..is all part of own journey into self liberation ......perhaps you are refering Buddhism to books , to scriptures , to what your teacher told you ..........Dear Sir , in my current understanding , Buddhism is not something you know or something you wish to know ...or something you must know ...........so if you think you know Buddhism , you will always be you with yourself believing Buddhism in yourself ...........perhaps with that commitment , Buddhism will be a factor of your suffering ...........Dear Avisitor , sorry in advance perhaps you are looking Buddhism outside of you , trying to find the person in the mirror ...Buddhism is realizing the person in the mirror is body , you are the emotion that never could be seen in the mirror.............dear avisitor , since our understanding is very different , I am seriously hoping to debate with you

You said " No, I believe there is no need to discuss Buddhism with you.
You will only use the opportunity to reinforce your own beliefs and not hear any words I have said.
Please have a good life and maybe read a book or two about Buddhism,
Or even have the realization that there is more to Buddhism than is dreamed of in your philosophy .... hahaha." Un-quote

" Un-quote

I hope to debate with you as I know I will learn alot from you ............by avoiding to debate with me perhaps you will always be in your comfort zone ............so the choice is yours ...I am always ready ...... 
.........

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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.26.2013
09:11AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Answer this question ...
"Where were you before you were born?"

or answer this question ...
"Where will you be after you die?"

Don't give me your understanding or what you believe ...
Give me the truth .. give me the real answers
Otherwise, all your words don't add up to a hill of beans ... hahaha

You can always believe what you want
Or you can have whatever current understanding you wish to have.
It doesn't mean anything if there is no truth to it.
How do we know the truth???
When we can see and feel and understand the same things.
We see the sky is blue ... all people who can see know this ... truth.

Your belief that no right no wrong is not truth cause no one else sees this nor feels this nor understands this.
You have made up your own understandings and believe them beyond any other's words.
You even don't the words of Buddha ... hahaha

That is all fine. But, have you found the truth or have you just found more delusion that you wish to be the truth.
You say you wish to learn but all you have done is to express your beliefs over and over again.
Never once have you stopped to think about the teachings of Buddha.
Just that you are right and wish to confirm this.
Look at your topic in ZFI. You wished everyone to confirm you were right that there is no right and wrong.
You refused anything anyone else said.

I don't wish that you agree with me.
I do wish that you find the truth and learn from Buddha's wisdom
Find the liberation that you so wish for.
Yeah, your realization to be awakened.
Separate you from yourself ... hahaha
Do you know how that sounds???

It is nothing personal.
But, there are literally millions people who agree with the Buddha's teaching and then there is you.
Argue or debate or whatever you wish.
It won't change anything because you defend what you believe.
All thing will change .. maybe not in this life time but the next.
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Reply from *CSEe*
Aug.26.2013
10:03AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
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Dear Avisitor , I will answer all your question part by part as it would be very long . You said I quote " Answer this question ...
"Where were you before you were born?"

or answer this question ...
"Where will you be after you die?" Un-quote

My answer to both question is myself ......I was myself before I born and myelf will be myself after I die ................dear avisitor , in my current understanding of Buddhism , as long as I still have desire / will / emotions / fear / love / greed etc that I know it as " MYSELF" I will always exist .............born or death as in human knowledge is only a natural process of the body Buddhism ...the body is un-going its natural process into nothingness and birth / death as what human knowledge..... is part of the body Buddhism ........as for ME , I am same as any living or non-living , I am nothingess same as the body but my cause of existence is not material body but is emotions ...so as long as I still attached to emotion , I will exist ...but no matter how long it takes still I in a journey into nothingness ......
I am happy you ask me question ....and I could learn not only from your reply or your question but also from my answer ....

Thks alot ....I will reply more after this as I need to fetch my daughter from class ....

Thks CSEe

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Reply from *CSEe*
Aug.26.2013
10:12AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
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Dear Avisitor . yopu said "Don't give me your understanding or what you believe ...
Give me the truth .. give me the real answers
Otherwise, all your words don't add up to a hill of beans ... hahaha

You can always believe what you want
Or you can have whatever current understanding you wish to have.
It doesn't mean anything if there is no truth to it.
How do we know the truth???
When we can see and feel and understand the same things.
We see the sky is blue ... all people who can see know this ... truth.Un-quote

Perhaps you are still living in knowledge , perhaps you became part of the knowledge ...the truth as you explained is merely knowledge ...the sky is blue because you learn from your parent , your education , your sociaty , your friend ....and you accept it and you live in it .......thats is CULTURE and HUMAN KNOWLEDGE my friend ..............in my current understanding , Buddhism is a NATURAL PROCESS that you will discover yourself , free from your confusion , free from your attachment of all emotion including knowledge into nothingness ...your original condition .....seems to me you  glued to knowledge and perhaps knowledge had confused you .

Buddhism is beyond knowledge , so if you keep looking down how could you see the birds flying above you ..........???? Dear Avisitor , perhaps Buddhism is the only process and its natural...the only truth ...care to debate further ?

Thks CSEe

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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.26.2013
11:01AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "

Dear Avisitor , I will answer all your question part by part as it would be very long . You said I quote " Answer this question ...
"Where were you before you were born?"

or answer this question ...
"Where will you be after you die?" Un-quote


My answer to both question is myself ......I was myself before I born and myelf will be myself after I die ................dear avisitor , in my current understanding of Buddhism , as long as I still have desire / will / emotions / fear / love / greed etc that I know it as " MYSELF" I will always exist .............born or death as in human knowledge is only a natural process of the body Buddhism ...the body is un-going its natural process into nothingness and birth / death as what human knowledge..... is part of the body Buddhism ........as for ME , I am same as any living or non-living , I am nothingess same as the body but my cause of existence is not material body but is emotions ...so as long as I still attached to emotion , I will exist ...but no matter how long it takes still I in a journey into nothingness ......
I am happy you ask me question ....and I could learn not only from your reply or your question but also from my answer ....


Thks alot ....I will reply more after this as I need to fetch my daughter from class ....


Thks CSEe

"
.........

No, that is the wrong answer.
Try again!!
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Reply from *CSEe*
Aug.26.2013
11:01AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
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Dear Avisitor , you said I quote "Your belief that no right no wrong is not truth cause no one else sees this nor feels this nor understands this.
You have made up your own understandings and believe them beyond any other's words.
You even don't the words of Buddha ... hahaha" un-quote

So you always look for reference ? So you just follow the majority ? Dear Avisitor , Buddhism is self realization ...you realize yourself and with that you live your life ...not others lifes ..............even Siddharta ....

Thks CSEe

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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.26.2013
11:05AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line All things made of aggregates or compounds are impermanent.
You are made up of this body and mind which are aggregates of things.
They will fall apart. You were not there before birth and you will not be there after death.

When you under go an operation, the doctors will give you a chemical to knock you out.
Where is your consciousness?
No where. You don't exist outside your body.


Find out where you were before you were born
Find out where you will be after your death
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Reply from *CSEe*
Aug.26.2013
11:08AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
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Dear Avisitor , you said I quote  " That is all fine. But, have you found the truth or have you just found more delusion that you wish to be the truth.
You say you wish to learn but all you have done is to express your beliefs over and over again.
Never once have you stopped to think about the teachings of Buddha.
Just that you are right and wish to confirm this.
Look at your topic in ZFI. You wished everyone to confirm you were right that there is no right and wrong.
You refused anything anyone else said." un-quote

I have try my level best to explain to you even challenge you for debate but no matter how I explained to you , you keep saying I never wish to learn ..............again Dear Avisitor , I am learning here and if I do not agree with you NOW thats simply mean that perhaps I haven reach your level of realization or I will never understand you at all ...Buddhism is all about learning NOT teaching so why you so interested in teaching me ? Lets debate okey ...perhaps we could learn from each other .

I have posted many reply in ZFI but it was never published as all my posting are being controlled ...........

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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.26.2013
11:10AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line All things made of aggregates or compounds are impermanent.
You are made up of this body and mind which are aggregates of things.
They will fall apart. You were not there before birth and you will not be there after death.

When you under go an operation, the doctors will give you a chemical to knock you out.
Where is your consciousness?
No where. You don't exist outside your body.


Find out where you were before you were born
Find out where you will be after your death
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Reply from *CSEe*
Aug.26.2013
11:13AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
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Dear Avisitor , you said I quote " I don't wish that you agree with me.
I do wish that you find the truth and learn from Buddha's wisdom
Find the liberation that you so wish for.
Yeah, your realization to be awakened.
Separate you from yourself ... hahaha
Do you know how that sounds???un-quote

Perhaps you see it differently , care to share ?

You said , I quote "It is nothing personal.
But, there are literally millions people who agree with the Buddha's teaching and then there is you.
Argue or debate or whatever you wish.
It won't change anything because you defend what you believe.
All thing will change .. maybe not in this life time but the next." un-quote

Dear avisitor , perhaps nothing is out there , no one is with you just you with yourself ..thats Buddhism ...perhaps your knowledge had confused you cause suffering to you ..............by living in others life

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Reply from Avisitor
Aug.26.2013
11:14AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Alan has made it clear to me that I should not continue this discussion with you.
It is time to back off.
I do not need to try to teach you what you can learn for yourself.
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Reply from the alan
Aug.26.2013
11:19AM EDT 
Email the alan
vertical line Quote: "Alan has made it clear to me that I should not continue this discussion with you.
It is time to back off.
I do not need to try to teach you what you can learn for yourself.
"
.........

Just to be clear, you can discuss this or any other topic as much as you want, as long as you don't end up resorting to calling other people names (i.e personal attacks). I do sense though that it is a good time to move on in order to avoid that :)

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Reply from *CSEe*
Aug.26.2013
11:20AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
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Dear Avisitor , you said I quote "No, that is the wrong answer.
Try again!!" un-quote

Yes , I agree so what is your right answer ?...lets debate on that .......Dear Avisitor , I had challenge you perhaps hundreds of times for a debate but every time you seems avoiding ......why ? so lets focus on this topic as posted by you .......and debate .

"Where were you before you were born?"Where will you be after you die?"

I had given my brief answer and ready to explain further if you interested so what is your answer my friend ...I am eager to learn .

Sincerely

CSEe

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Reply from *CSEe*
Aug.26.2013
11:37AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
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Dear Avisitor , you said , I quote"All things made of aggregates or compounds are impermanent.
You are made up of this body and mind which are aggregates of things.
They will fall apart. You were not there before birth and you will not be there after death." un-quote

So if you are not there before birth and will not be there after death so why are you here ? ..........

In my current understanding of Buddhism each moment in our journey , we are in different condition ...each moment we birth and dies ......because each moment our emotion changes , we are never the same as my emotions changes each moment ...each moment ourselves are in different condition and we are constantly in a natural process towards nothingness ....thats Buddhism .

in my current understanding of Buddhism , You are never your body , your body is never yours , you never related to your body...your body is same as you in its own natural process towards nothingness that never related to you ..........birth / death as you learn from your knowledge is part of your body natural process ...your body is teaching you to discover yourself , yourself is all your emotion , your mind is reflection of collective emotion ........you will always exist as long as you have desire to exist , the will to exist ..........

You said , I quote ' When you under go an operation, the doctors will give you a chemical to knock you out.
Where is your consciousness?
No where. You don't exist outside your body." Un-quote

So when you sleep where is your consciousness ? You still here ......you will be always with yourself as long as you attached to it ....but no matter how , you are in a constant process liberation from yourself .....thats Buddhism and is natural ......


Dear Avisitor , you said "Find out where you were before you were born
Find out where you will be after your death" un-quote

Perhaps as I progress into greater realization , there is no need to find out anything as Buddhism had explained everything .. perhaps in Buddhism is not on the knowledge but is to discover your emotion of wanting to find out knowledge to fulfill your desire ...Buddhism is to realize your desire not the knowledge .....

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Reply from *CSEe*
Aug.26.2013
11:41AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
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Quote: "Quote: "Alan has made it clear to me that I should not continue this discussion with you.
It is time to back off.
I do not need to try to teach you what you can learn for yourself.
"
.........

Just to be clear, you can discuss this or any other topic as much as you want, as long as you don't end up resorting to calling other people names (i.e personal attacks). I do sense though that it is a good time to move on in order to avoid that :)

"
.........

Nothing personal for me as I never feel offended by Avisitor or I never intended to be rude to him / her ..........I am just learning here and Avisitor is a great learning source for me sincerely . I hope Avisitor could continue debate with me ...as I had answer all Avisitor reply and waiting for Avisitor feedbacks ....

Thks CSEe

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