history principles practice stories, books, media discussion forum organizations resources
zenguide.com logo
 
Sunday Dec 21 2014 01:52AM ET
º login º register º email º guestbook º printer friendly
grey dot
  A monk who had studied under the Zen master Kassan for a period of time.
Then he left him to go to many other places for more Zen enquiry.
However, he could not find any place that fitted him.
Furthermore, at any place visited,... continue...

z
.
e
.
n
menu left history menu spacer principles menu spacer practice menu spacer zen media menu spacer discussion forum menu spacer organization directory menu spacer resources  
login
  DISCUSSION FORUM
» topic list   » start a new topic   » my tracked topics   » view topic
grey dot

horizontal line
→→→→ vertical line TOPIC: THOUGHTS ABOUT MEDITATION
vertical line Posted on Sep.14.2013 @ 10:06PM EDT by Avisitor
I am sorry. But anytime you use words, there will be mis-understanding and conflict.
That is the nature of talking about what is awareness.
So if you understand my mis-givings to talk about what I believe in then you know it is not an easy thing to do.
To communicate the understanding or belief from my experiences.
And remember that experience doesn't mean much without the understanding that is suppose to come with it.
It is a balancing act.

Awareness is perception .. there is you (whatever you are, really you) and you perceive or have awareness.
Awareness can dwell in silence or be in the most noisy environment.
But, in order for a person to become cognizant of their awareness, silence is a better environment.
A person has a flow of thoughts which arises and passes across the mind.
When a person identifies with the thoughts (the internal dialogue), the person becomes this array of thoughts across the mind.

Meditation gives us a task to focus upon.
Watch breath. Let thoughts come and let them go. Watch breath.
Focusing on breath and letting go of thoughts allows the person to disengage from the flow of thoughts.
It sounds simple to let go of thoughts. But it is this process that allows for changes to happen.
The mind quiets naturally. Concentration is better. Clarity.

Sometime after much practice, a person can sense the concentration still with the person for awhile after finishing a formal sitting practice.
Dwelling in this sense of clarity is bringing meditation into daily life.
When sitting at the doctors office or waiting for the bus, the person is no longer wasting time.
The person is living the present moment.

If the person has an unpleasant task to do or is just waiting for something or someone
Then without this clarity of mind, the flow of thoughts will run scattered and impose it thoughts.
Emotions, wants, needs, clinging, grasping .... "suffering".
The clarity allows for space to open up. To see the flow of thoughts and choose to go with or not to go with the flow of thoughts.
Not wrapped up in the internal dialogue, the suffering is lessened.

If the person continues the practice to a very strong degree of concentration.
A very particular sense of silence comes.
... I will stop here.
Go to Latest Reply   Reply to this Topic   Email Avisitor
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from so_teh
Sep.14.2013
11:47PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line Here is my experience. Here is my understanding. I cannot actually show you my experience or my understanding of meditation. You may walk pass me while I am meditating and not notice anything. Or you may recognize my meditation. I am both internally aware and acutely aware. I notice that which is observing and that which is observed. I'm watchful. I'm diligent. That's good enough to be meditative. Sitting is catharsis. Meditation is witnessing. Meditation should be a humanities course.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 154383
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
Sep.15.2013
12:43AM EDT 
vertical line In meditation you are working in the mind or the psyche. If you ardently practice you may experience some calming effect in the body and mind but only to a certain degree. Thoughts continue to arise and be bothersome in most cases if you cannot have some degree of understanding why your thoughts are arising. Just watching them let go is not enough. That is why I am asking if thoughts are really important in zazen. If they are not important why cannot you not let go. If they are important to zazen then by all means don't stop them or let them arise and falls. Every time I asked these questions most of the people are pissed off and annoyed...lol

Only when you have a degree of understanding or kensho is when these thoughts can ever stop bothering you. If you understand that they are not important then they all fall off.

Awareness come only when the mind is absent of any thoughts.
If there are thoughts then that is where your awareness is.
And thoughts are just remembering of the past or imagining of something in the future. In short what you are thinking never exists.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 154384
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
Sep.15.2013
12:45AM EDT 
vertical line Just watching thoughts arise and falls away is giving some importance or giving energy to something not really important.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 154385
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from football
Sep.15.2013
02:44PM EDT 
Email football
vertical line

Today I will teach you my method.

Following the white method.It's name is on its own following white.You're following the thoughts.When a good thought come to your mind you live somewhat an enlightened or whiteness in your mind.By this appearance you understand it is a good thought.

What is a good thought? Good thought is the way.Good thought is today,tomorrow and after.You simply follow it so you know when to get in action,when to speak when to do when to stop when to stay when to go..etc.Shortly in everything you do.Again it is the way.

Here black is bad.it means bad news.Of course every color and shape around you have a meaning but I won't focus on this.You can simply understand that by your own rules as you progress.

Now Just focus on the white.White is the way.By following white you automatically connect with the way.And it is the meditative state that you are looking for.Without needing to sit I can stay with a mediative state on day long.

I highly advice this to everyone.Please practice.I'm sure you will find benefits on this.

I don't know Why masters don't tell about this.Everyone can benefit with this method.But I also know that this isn't for everyone.

Anyway I love you all.Today or later you will practice this.You can be more careful by today.

I am open to all questions about this method.This just work for me.thanks

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 154391
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from football
Sep.15.2013
02:47PM EDT 
Email football
vertical line Did you ever notice that the word "white" and enlightenment very similar(alike)?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 154392
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Sep.15.2013
03:57PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "Here is my experience. Here is my understanding. I cannot actually show you my experience or my understanding of meditation. You may walk pass me while I am meditating and not notice anything. Or you may recognize my meditation. I am both internally aware and acutely aware. I notice that which is observing and that which is observed. I'm watchful. I'm diligent. That's good enough to be meditative. Sitting is catharsis. Meditation is witnessing. Meditation should be a humanities course."
.........

The gate to the Dharma is two fold.
Practice and knowledge.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 154395
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Sep.15.2013
04:11PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "In meditation you are working in the mind or the psyche. If you ardently practice you may experience some calming effect in the body and mind but only to a certain degree. Thoughts continue to arise and be bothersome in most cases if you cannot have some degree of understanding why your thoughts are arising. Just watching them let go is not enough. That is why I am asking if thoughts are really important in zazen. If they are not important why cannot you not let go. If they are important to zazen then by all means don't stop them or let them arise and falls. Every time I asked these questions most of the people are pissed off and annoyed...lol

Only when you have a degree of understanding or kensho is when these thoughts can ever stop bothering you. If you understand that they are not important then they all fall off.

Awareness come only when the mind is absent of any thoughts.
If there are thoughts then that is where your awareness is.
And thoughts are just remembering of the past or imagining of something in the future. In short what you are thinking never exists.


"
.........

Awareness is always present but it can be scattered.
Being pulled this way and that way ... with the train of thoughts.
Identifying with the internal dialogue.
But, meditation gives one a task of watching breath.
Letting the thoughts arise and ...
Letting them go allows for the awareness to break from being so identified with thoughts.
When the practice reaches a point of intense concentration, the flow of thoughts slows or even stops.
Awareness is still there. Cleared from pull of thoughts.

One isn't trying to stop thoughts.
Thoughts are a natural function of the mind.
At first, one trains oneself to work with the mind and identify with it.
Now, one trains to detach from identifying with it.
And have focus, concentration, calm, equanimity, awareness, clarity.
This allows for space to open up.
And, one can see the space before thought and after thought.
It allows one to choose to go with the flow or against the flow.
One actually lives in the here and now.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 154396
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Sep.15.2013
04:15PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "

Today I will teach you my method.


Following the white method.It's name is on its own following white.You're following the thoughts.When a good thought come to your mind you live somewhat an enlightened or whiteness in your mind.By this appearance you understand it is a good thought.


What is a good thought? Good thought is the way.Good thought is today,tomorrow and after.You simply follow it so you know when to get in action,when to speak when to do when to stop when to stay when to go..etc.Shortly in everything you do.Again it is the way.


Here black is bad.it means bad news.Of course every color and shape around you have a meaning but I won't focus on this.You can simply understand that by your own rules as you progress.


Now Just focus on the white.White is the way.By following white you automatically connect with the way.And it is the meditative state that you are looking for.Without needing to sit I can stay with a mediative state on day long.


I highly advice this to everyone.Please practice.I'm sure you will find benefits on this.


I don't know Why masters don't tell about this.Everyone can benefit with this method.But I also know that this isn't for everyone.


Anyway I love you all.Today or later you will practice this.You can be more careful by today.


I am open to all questions about this method.This just work for me.thanks


"
.........

Thanks for sharing.
I am well aware that there are many methods.
Can you speak more about your method and its benefits??
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 154397
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Sep.15.2013
04:17PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line I thought this merited repeating here ...

THE WAY TOWARD LIBERATION
Posted on Aug.13.2009 @ 07:45PM EDT by chontri
The way toward liberation is to train yourself to live in the present
without wanting to become anything. Give up becoming this or that,
live without cravings, and experience this present moment with full
attention. Then you will not cringe at death or seek repeated rebirth.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 154398
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from football
Sep.15.2013
05:09PM EDT 
Email football
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "

Today I will teach you my method.


Following the white method.It's name is on its own following white.You're following the thoughts.When a good thought come to your mind you live somewhat an enlightened or whiteness in your mind.By this appearance you understand it is a good thought.


What is a good thought? Good thought is the way.Good thought is today,tomorrow and after.You simply follow it so you know when to get in action,when to speak when to do when to stop when to stay when to go..etc.Shortly in everything you do.Again it is the way.


Here black is bad.it means bad news.Of course every color and shape around you have a meaning but I won't focus on this.You can simply understand that by your own rules as you progress.


Now Just focus on the white.White is the way.By following white you automatically connect with the way.And it is the meditative state that you are looking for.Without needing to sit I can stay with a mediative state on day long.


I highly advice this to everyone.Please practice.I'm sure you will find benefits on this.


I don't know Why masters don't tell about this.Everyone can benefit with this method.But I also know that this isn't for everyone.


Anyway I love you all.Today or later you will practice this.You can be more careful by today.


I am open to all questions about this method.This just work for me.thanks


"
.........

Thanks for sharing.
I am well aware that there are many methods.
Can you speak more about your method and its benefits??"
.........

"
.........

Thanks for sharing.
I am well aware that there are many methods.
Can you speak more about your method and its benefits??
"
.........

Sure, what I mean by thoughts is those thoughts that come when you don't think.I mainly dwell on this.Of course you can use this method in daily thoughts too.You know brightness or not.It's that much simple.Many benefits.Countless.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 154404
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from football
Sep.15.2013
05:18PM EDT 
Email football
vertical line

May be that's what they call enlightenment.You know enlightenment.

At least that's what I take.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 154405
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
Sep.15.2013
05:41PM EDT 
vertical line So what happens when you eternally watching your thoughts to arise and falls. You mean that is just what you do in your life in zazen and when daydreaming? Watching your thoughts to arise and pass by?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 154406
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from leoj99
Sep.15.2013
05:42PM EDT 
vertical line Then you are attached to the white and you avoid the dark. When dark comes in you choke...lol
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 154407
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from football
Sep.15.2013
06:23PM EDT 
Email football
vertical line

Quote: "So what happens when you eternally watching your thoughts to arise and falls. You mean that is just what you do in your life in zazen and when daydreaming? Watching your thoughts to arise and pass by? "
.........

You think it's interesting? too for me when I first heard.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 154413
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from football
Sep.15.2013
06:24PM EDT 
Email football
vertical line

Quote: "Then you are attached to the white and you avoid the dark."
.........

Yes.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 154414
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from so_teh
Sep.18.2013
06:26PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line One either has 'The Ability of Thought' or 'The Ability of Meditation.' To me, you have one or the other.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 154485
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Sep.18.2013
06:34PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line One can have both.
But, one choose to use one or the other at any one time.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 154486
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from so_teh
Sep.18.2013
06:44PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line That's folly between the two.

One knows which is their main.
And uses the other seldom.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 154487
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from so_teh
Sep.18.2013
06:55PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line That's just what I observe.

Sitting is in the middle. "Okay, I'm too meditative. I need to sit." or "I'm too thoughtful. I need to sit."
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 154488
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from so_teh
Sep.18.2013
07:41PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line Breathing in, I have enough.
Breathing out, reality is enough.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 154489
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Sep.18.2013
09:57PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Thoughts are never suppressed.
They are coming and let go.
When in situations where they are needed, they are used
When they are not needed, they are let go.

The meditative state is where one lives or chooses to abide.
It is not better nor worse when you see the truth.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 154490
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from so_teh
Sep.18.2013
10:34PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line He who sit through the days.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 154492
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Sep.20.2013
09:24PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Looking at myself, I see a person of emotions.
Feeling good or feeling the blues or feeling bad ...
These emotions like things done their way.
Example is eating at the dinner table undisturbed by intrusive telemarketers calling to sell better Cable, Internet and Phone service.
When I look at the emotions, it has been put there through repeated words or ideas or thoughts.
Like when a person practices a martial arts move over and over until it has become a muscle memory.
These ideas or words or thoughts have been worked over and over until it resides waiting for the trigger to start it.
Once started, a flow of thoughts follows which are put into the mind to support the emotion such as anger or hate or a wildness
Control is an emotional clinging to what one wants it to be.

I understand that at any given situation, I can either follow my thoughts or remain calm ... remain in the space before thoughts
Cause in unpleasant situations, my thoughts scatter and that is when suffering starts.
Remaining in the space .. the calm ... I experience the situation but don't become part of it.

My practice has given me a way to look at my thoughts.
I understand its function. But, I am still at a lost as to where it comes forth from??
Thinking up ideas and doing things requires intentions and thoughts flow forth.
But, from where or how??

I am sorry if no one relates to this or if I am simply on the wrong track.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 154511
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from so_teh
Sep.21.2013
09:09PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line A basic unminding is the necessary first step. Followed by mindfulness training. Then!
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 154541
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Sep.24.2013
08:09PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Quote: "A basic unminding is the necessary first step. Followed by mindfulness training. Then!"
.........

Good advice is often gone un-heeded ... hahahaha
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 154570
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from so_teh
Sep.24.2013
09:36PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line A few days after all that exists between the Universe and conditions of reading the Self. I have absorbed into meditation seat once again I am a real life and death of compassion. One's Own Humor is to forget about our connection to everyone. Tranquility and conditions of reading commercial information privacy and conditions of the ego issue with love and relationships between a real problem is that which you can do. Good Practice and love are basically confident in my heart. Go with the teachings or my understanding oneself as it has no end. Yes it's a nice little bit of a separate form and the brain. You'll feel free to be as simple out in the world and in the process of a seed. With Things as they were never separate from the way. I don't know how to get the most important thing that I am ready to accept. Our mission is to be enlightened by all that is real in all things just as they are basically a voided many events happening in our life.

So...really didn't mean anything except for I was using the next word suggestion on my tablet. Hoped you enjoyed that.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 154571
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Sep.25.2013
12:00AM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Sorry, all I got was a long run on sentence.
My mind is still wandering ... hahahaha
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 154577
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from football
Sep.25.2013
04:00AM EDT 
Email football
vertical line

Quote: "A few days after all that exists between the Universe and conditions of reading the Self. I have absorbed into meditation seat once again I am a real life and death of compassion. One's Own Humor is to forget about our connection to everyone. Tranquility and conditions of reading commercial information privacy and conditions of the ego issue with love and relationships between a real problem is that which you can do. Good Practice and love are basically confident in my heart. Go with the teachings or my understanding oneself as it has no end. Yes it's a nice little bit of a separate form and the brain. You'll feel free to be as simple out in the world and in the process of a seed. With Things as they were never separate from the way. I don't know how to get the most important thing that I am ready to accept. Our mission is to be enlightened by all that is real in all things just as they are basically a voided many events happening in our life.

So...really didn't mean anything except for I was using the next word suggestion on my tablet. Hoped you enjoyed that.
"
.........

I have enjoyed that thank you.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 154581
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from so_teh
Sep.25.2013
05:04PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line They're playing a game. (life)
You are watching. (meditation)
This is it. (the absolute)
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 154589
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from so_teh
Oct.04.2013
10:42PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line Meditation is a skill...

…you don’t know what you don’t know.
“Unconscious Incompetence”

…know that you don’t know.
“Consciously Incompetent”

…know that you know.
“Conscious Competence”

…only don't know.
“Unconscious Competence”

there are your four mental stages of learning any new skill.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 154676
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Oct.05.2013
01:24PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line They are four mental states.
They do not necessarily flow, in any particular order, from one into the other.
Ones does not awaken one step at a time.
When the conditions are right, it may happen or it may not.
A push and you may go forward or you may stumble.

But, thanks anyway.
May come in handy for another day.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 154680
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from Avisitor
Oct.12.2013
10:13PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Someone in another forum posted about how he had found a bird flapping beside the road.
He picked it up and tried to help it.
Carrying it in his hands. It chirped and died.
All he could think about was how humans have such non-sense.
He wanted people to stop and try to be one with nature.

He wallowed in how a bird died in his hands.
He probably gave the bird a shock by holding it.
Not something a wild bird would want to have a predator hold it.

Instead of looking at this episode in light of the practice we keep ..
he continued his train of thought and followed his feelings.
He continued to class but could not learn the materials.
Still focused on the death of the bird and blaming human nonsense.

Can anyone see that he caused his own suffering with his train of thoughts.
He supported his feelings with those thoughts.
He was living in the wishes for the bird and humanity.
Not in living in the here and now.

The illusion of life is strong and self supporting.
Learning to understand begins with learning about oneself.
If one wallows in pity then how is one learning and growing??
Sorry, just wallowing in the pity of this .... ha ha ha ha
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 154763
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from so_teh
Oct.13.2013
12:03AM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line Spacedrum by Yuki Koshimoto
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 154764
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from so_teh
Oct.15.2013
12:09AM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line Do you notice yourself working through your mind?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 154786
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from justin
Oct.15.2013
02:47AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line Quote: "Someone in another forum posted about how he had found a bird flapping beside the road.
He picked it up and tried to help it.
Carrying it in his hands. It chirped and died.
All he could think about was how humans have such non-sense.
He wanted people to stop and try to be one with nature.

He wallowed in how a bird died in his hands.
He probably gave the bird a shock by holding it.
Not something a wild bird would want to have a predator hold it.

Instead of looking at this episode in light of the practice we keep ..
he continued his train of thought and followed his feelings.
He continued to class but could not learn the materials.
Still focused on the death of the bird and blaming human nonsense.

Can anyone see that he caused his own suffering with his train of thoughts.
He supported his feelings with those thoughts.
He was living in the wishes for the bird and humanity.
Not in living in the here and now.

The illusion of life is strong and self supporting.
Learning to understand begins with learning about oneself.
If one wallows in pity then how is one learning and growing??
Sorry, just wallowing in the pity of this .... ha ha ha ha
"
.........

just drop that!
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 154787
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from football
Oct.15.2013
04:58AM EDT 
Email football
vertical line

10:55 here

cheers.

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 154788
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from football
Oct.15.2013
05:32AM EDT 
Email football
vertical line tigers can protect themselves
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 154789
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from justin
Oct.15.2013
06:35AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line Quote: "Do you notice yourself working through your mind? "
.........

that personified subtleness,
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 154790
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from justin
Oct.15.2013
06:36AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line Quote: "tigers can protect themselves"
.........

nice,
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 154791
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from football
Oct.15.2013
07:32AM EDT 
Email football
vertical line Where is *CSEe*?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 154792
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from football
Oct.15.2013
07:35AM EDT 
Email football
vertical line

Quote: "Quote: "tigers can protect themselves"
.........

nice,
"
.........

What is your criterions at this nice?

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 154793
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from justin
Oct.15.2013
07:50AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line i thought it was a nice way to describe
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 154794
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from justin
Oct.15.2013
07:51AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line oh did you mean what criteria did i use,  to come to this view

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 154795
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from justin
Oct.15.2013
07:54AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line if i describe those criteria in depth then it will detract from the nice,

one of the criteria i used was the simplicity, of description you gave.


vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 154796
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from justin
Oct.15.2013
07:55AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line haha what criteria did you use to formulate the question of asking me what criteria did i use 
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 154797
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from football
Oct.15.2013
09:11AM EDT 
Email football
vertical line I'm a brand justin.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 154799
horizontal line
 
horizontal line
Reply from football
Oct.15.2013
09:11AM EDT 
Email football
vertical line

O - O

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 154800
horizontal line
 
Back To Topic List   Go to Top of Page

 



SUPPORT ZENGUIDE.COM
If you are planning on purchasing any product from amazon.com, you can help us out by using the search box to the right or by clicking on this link to begin shopping.


Purchase posters, art prints, media (music CD & DVD)

buy this BUDDHA I
by Ricki Mountain
Puchase this Item
More Art Prints & Media
Zen & Buddhism books
 
 
d
.
i
.
s
.
c
.
u
.
s
.
s
.
i
.
o
.
n
.

.
f
.
o
.
r
.
u
.
m
.
Copyright © 1999 - 2014 zenguide.com - All rights reserved. °