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  Shoun became a teacher of Soto Zen. When he was still a student his father passed away, leaving him to care for his old mother. Whenever Shoun went to a meditation hall he always took his mother with him. Since she accompanied him, when... continue...

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→→→→ vertical line TOPIC: RIGHT AND WRONG.
vertical line Posted on Sep.16.2013 @ 10:39PM EDT by justin
right and wrong are concepts, beliefs, notions.

Buddha and the patriarchs recommend freeing yourself from notions and seeing beyond them . To do this one must first see them as they are.

Every group, part of society has different ways of determining what is right and wrong (acceptable and not) it just so happens in buddhism after much trial and error over many centuries we have a person /s who have shown us what they would consider right and wrong and a way to avoid them this way is called different names one of which being the 8 fold path.

if someone does not like these ideas and would like to establish his her own belief system go for it, if someone might like to follow these, again that is ok.

Above all as discussed by the buddha investigate, search your own perception decide for your self, this is a very easy thing to understand.

and consider things like, who is it these are right for, who is it decides what is right (who is it that perceives) am i thinking a a small man or a big man (decide for yourself what i mean by these terms) what is society, what place do i form within it, what purpose do ideas of right and wrong accomplish, once you are happy with these things then do not become attached to them. but again that is just a notion.



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Reply from leoj99
Sep.16.2013
11:16PM EDT 
vertical line But there is right and wrong you cannot deny that...LOL
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 154433
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Reply from so_teh
Sep.16.2013
11:34PM EDT 
Email so_teh
vertical line We could say everything and everyone is on a unique Path.
We could say everything and everyone has a unique Mind.
We could say everything and everyone knows and doesn't know simultaneously.
So, I think it is important to do one's best not to cause suffering.
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 154436
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Reply from *CSEe*
Sep.16.2013
11:58PM EDT 
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Right verses wrong , true verses false or good verses bad is all in human knowledge / human culture ......but Buddhism concept is beyond culture / beyond all human knowledge .....Buddhism is a natural process that human will discover / experience / learnt / realize / accepted ownselves and towards freedom of all emotions .

In my current understanding , there is no right verses wrong , no true verses false or no good verses bad in Buddhism as all action or re-action is a great source of learning towards realization of own self .

In human knowledge , Osama action for killing thousand of people is bad / wrong / false and Dalai Lama words is good / true / right ....

In my current understanding both Osama action or Dalai Lama words is SAME and EQUAL great source to discover ownselves ......Osama like all others need to discover his emotion , his action is teaching him , he need to realize his emotion in his own process and his action is also a great source for others to discover their emotion , their love / greed / care to their love one or anger / hate towards Osama ....

Same goes to Dalai Lama words as we could learn from his words same as he could learn from Osama 's action .

So in Buddhism concept nothing is good or bad , nothing is right or wrong ..I hope to debate with others on this for my greater understanding .

Thks

CSEe 

vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 154437
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Reply from leoj99
Sep.17.2013
12:07AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "We could say everything and everyone is on a unique Path.
We could say everything and everyone has a unique Mind.
We could say everything and everyone knows and doesn't know simultaneously.
So, I think it is important to do one's best not to cause suffering.
"
.........

How can you not cause suffering if you have no understanding of the truth?
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Reply from leoj99
Sep.17.2013
12:09AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "

Right verses wrong , true verses false or good verses bad is all in human knowledge / human culture ......but Buddhism concept is beyond culture / beyond all human knowledge .....Buddhism is a natural process that human will discover / experience / learnt / realize / accepted ownselves and towards freedom of all emotions .

In my current understanding , there is no right verses wrong , no true verses false or no good verses bad in Buddhism as all action or re-action is a great source of learning towards realization of own self .

In human knowledge , Osama action for killing thousand of people is bad / wrong / false and Dalai Lama words is good / true / right ....

In my current understanding both Osama action or Dalai Lama words is SAME and EQUAL great source to discover ownselves ......Osama like all others need to discover his emotion , his action is teaching him , he need to realize his emotion in his own process and his action is also a great source for others to discover their emotion , their love / greed / care to their love one or anger / hate towards Osama ....

Same goes to Dalai Lama words as we could learn from his words same as he could learn from Osama 's action .

So in Buddhism concept nothing is good or bad , nothing is right or wrong ..I hope to debate with others on this for my greater understanding .

Thks

CSEe 

"
.........

So whom do  you like best? Osama or Dalai Lama...lol
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Reply from justin
Sep.17.2013
12:28AM EDT 
Email justin
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Right verses wrong , true verses false or good verses bad is all in human knowledge / human culture ......but Buddhism concept is beyond culture / beyond all human knowledge .....Buddhism is a natural process that human will discover / experience / learnt / realize / accepted ownselves and towards freedom of all emotions .

In my current understanding , there is no right verses wrong , no true verses false or no good verses bad in Buddhism as all action or re-action is a great source of learning towards realization of own self .

In human knowledge , Osama action for killing thousand of people is bad / wrong / false and Dalai Lama words is good / true / right ....

In my current understanding both Osama action or Dalai Lama words is SAME and EQUAL great source to discover ownselves ......Osama like all others need to discover his emotion , his action is teaching him , he need to realize his emotion in his own process and his action is also a great source for others to discover their emotion , their love / greed / care to their love one or anger / hate towards Osama ....

Same goes to Dalai Lama words as we could learn from his words same as he could learn from Osama 's action .

So in Buddhism concept nothing is good or bad , nothing is right or wrong ..I hope to debate with others on this for my greater understanding .




No,


in one way these are notions yes. But what ever you do will just pile on the karma. If you are happy with the karma dusts follow this belief.
If you might like to see your original nature clear the dust (that are not real anyway) and maybe you will notice.
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Reply from justin
Sep.17.2013
12:47AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line the extent to which a person applies his her knowledge of self of reality determines their understanding of right or wrong behavior.

As Leo has said how can someone reduce suffering if they do not understand how suffering comes about (it is directly related to the 8 fold path and ideas of wrong and right) .

All people will treat some others with love and compassion if one person treats only his wife compassionately then this shows a small expression of understanding, if someone treats the world with compassion it indicates a wider understanding.

Both have the aim of reducing suffering it is the scope of expression (therefore understanding which is directly related to ignorance) which has varied.

Everything which suffers, the animals you eat, the wars we create, the person we lie to, and every thing is effected by this, all the universe is one. if we reduce the impact and the amount of suffering we cause others and therefore we reduce our own.


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Reply from leoj99
Sep.17.2013
12:51AM EDT 
vertical line That is fairly good one...LOL
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Reply from *CSEe*
Sep.17.2013
05:50AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
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Dear Justin , you said "No, in one way these are notions yes. But what ever you do will just pile on the karma. If you are happy with the karma dusts follow this belief.
If you might like to see your original nature clear the dust (that are not real anyway) and maybe you will notice." un-quote

In my current understanding , Buddhism is a natural process of self realization , self acceptance leading to self liberation towards emptiness back into nothingness-the original nature of all existence .

So if human have faith in anything , believe on that faith , creates desire towards that faith , expecting the outcome of that faith ...human will travel into longer journey into self realization . In short if you had created a path , have faith in that path , had knowledge in that path ...you will always seeing yourself in the mirror ...you will travel into very long / suffering journey into realization .

Buddhism is to understand the emotion " to see your original nature " not to create an emotion or desire on your original nature ...........to me , in Buddhism , nothing can hurt you except yourself ........so whatever you do , is teaching you and provide a great learning source to others ...is always you , in journey of your will , your choice in your world .

I hope to debate with you further for my better understanding .

Thks

CSEe  

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Reply from justin
Sep.17.2013
10:22PM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line In my current understanding , Buddhism is a natural process of self realization , self acceptance leading to self liberation towards emptiness back into nothingness-the original nature of all existence .

yes i think this too in a way,

but to be able to travel this process one must first understand where they have begun.

to do this one must understand why they feel , think,  understand something the way they do. to do this an understanding of right and wrong is crucial. Once someone understands this and moves away from this they can disregard it (the raft to the other shore) but if they do not understand from the beginning how and why they are deluded how can they learn to be un-deluded ?

possibly the terms are not the best way of describing, maybe terms like small man thinking big man thinking may be better.

 
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Reply from *CSEe*
Sep.17.2013
11:33PM EDT 
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Dear Justin , perhaps if we "do" understand what is right and wrong and use this path as a guide , we will shaped as we wish to be shaped , be someone as we wish to be , becoming the one we know ...still at the end , we will be the one "made" by ourselves ...........we will always in a circle of our own existence .

In my current understanding , in awaken to Buddhism we will realize what is knowledge and awaken to realization of Buddhism . Knowledge is something we learn from our family / parent / school / education / culture / society etc ...is an information and from this information , human developed " right verses wrong" , "good verses bad" or " true verses false" ......this concept of comparison is base on knowledge ...and from knowledge , we developed culture and human greatly attached to this knowledge and live in this knowledge ..........

Dear Justin , in my current understanding , Buddhism is realization beyond knowledge ........and in this realization nothing is right or wrong and there is no "condition" , no "terms", no "rules" ..just realization on own emotion and Buddhism is a natural process ....for example , Osama action killing thousand of people .......if in my "knowledge" perhaps I will say his act is wrong / bad or false ........but in awakening to Buddhism concept , he do this because he same as others need to learn , his action is his learning process and is a great learning source for all to discover ownselves ...........so how can anything is wrong if we could learn from it ? I hope to further debate with you on this .

Thks   

CSEe

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Reply from justin
Sep.18.2013
01:11AM EDT 
Email justin
vertical line Dear Justin , in my current understanding , Buddhism is realization beyond knowledge ........and in this realization nothing is right or wrong and there is no "condition" , no "terms", no "rules" ..just realization on own emotion and Buddhism is a natural process ....for example , Osama action killing thousand of people .......if in my "knowledge" perhaps I will say his act is wrong / bad or false ........but in awakening to Buddhism concept , he do this because he same as others need to learn , his action is his learning process and is a great learning source for all to discover ownselves ...........so how can anything is wrong if we could learn from it ? I hope to further debate with you on this .

i agree, however you can not see the realisation if you are clouded with the delusion of duality and incorrect (read ignorant) thinking. But you will not be able to understand the remedy to duality without discernment of what duality is. Further to understand where you must go you need to understand where you have began from.

Without understanding the basic tenents of right or wrong you can not move past them in to non duality.

one needs to understand the rules before one can change them.

This is why karma is taught until one can see past this and have real understanding of what Karma is. If you do not understand what Karma causes (cloudy thinking) then you will not be able to free yourself (and become what you have always been)

this is why some people might say: before i studied Zen mountains were mountains rivers were  rivers during my study mountains were not mountains rivers were not rivers after realisation mountains are mountains rivers are rivers.
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Reply from *CSEe*
Sep.18.2013
02:47AM EDT 
Email *CSEe*
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Dear Justin , you said I quote "i agree, however you can not see the realisation if you are clouded with the delusion of duality and incorrect (read ignorant) thinking. But you will not be able to understand the remedy to duality without discernment of what duality is. Further to understand where you must go you need to understand where you have began from. " Un-quote

Perhaps if one awaken in Buddhism , realization of ownselves ,one will free from all knowledge on duality ...so to me if one awaken to Buddhism concept , there is no "need" to understand anything , or the burden of understanding anything ......meaning that if you realize yourself , realizing you ..there is all about discovering the emotion on " the need to do" not the outcome .....

Just like you will realize your emotion / desire to eat , while eating not on what you have eaten .......


Dear Justin , you said " Without understanding the basic tenents of right or wrong you can not move past them in to non duality. one needs to understand the rules before one can change them. " Un-quote

Currently I cant find any reason to agree with you on this . To me , all the "need to do" , "need to change" is all resulted from emotion / desire ....Buddhism is realizing emotion and journey into liberation from desire not to create more desire and attached into it . So you do not need to create emotion or desire to change anything because realization will take place and move you into other condition ...move you into other "self" naturally ............just like you move from a baby into a boy , a boy into a man , a man into old man without having desire to change , you are changing each moment in your journey ........you are in different condition each moment ,thats natural , that Buddhism .



Dear Justin , you said " This is why karma is taught until one can see past this and have real understanding of what Karma is. If you do not understand what Karma causes (cloudy thinking) then you will not be able to free yourself (and become what you have always been)

this is why some people might say: before i studied Zen mountains were mountains rivers were  rivers during my study mountains were not mountains rivers were not rivers after realisation mountains are mountains rivers are rivers.
" Un-quote

In my current understanding of Buddhism , mountains is mountains because you know it from your education / from your society / from your society ....in Buddhism mountain or river or Dalai Lama or the dirt under your shoe is same and equal as you ...all are existence in their own natural process into emptiness back into nothingness same as you or me .......in Buddhism , we do not need to discover mountain as mountain is just a great source of learning to all ..... to discover yourself , to discover myself ...is not knowledge to gain but is just a source of information .

Thks CSEe

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Reply from justin
Sep.19.2013
12:46AM EDT 
Email justin
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Dear Justin , you said I quote "i agree, however you can not see the realisation if you are clouded with the delusion of duality and incorrect (read ignorant) thinking. But you will not be able to understand the remedy to duality without discernment of what duality is. Further to understand where you must go you need to understand where you have began from. " Un-quote

Perhaps if one awaken in Buddhism , realization of ownselves ,one will free from all knowledge on duality ...so to me if one awaken to Buddhism concept , there is no "need" to understand anything , or the burden of understanding anything ......meaning that if you realize yourself , realizing you ..there is all about discovering the emotion on " the need to do" not the outcome .....

Just like you will realize your emotion / desire to eat , while eating not on what you have eaten .......


Dear Justin , you said " Without understanding the basic tenents of right or wrong you can not move past them in to non duality. one needs to understand the rules before one can change them. " Un-quote

Currently I cant find any reason to agree with you on this . To me , all the "need to do" , "need to change" is all resulted from emotion / desire ....Buddhism is realizing emotion and journey into liberation from desire not to create more desire and attached into it . So you do not need to create emotion or desire to change anything because realization will take place and move you into other condition ...move you into other "self" naturally ............just like you move from a baby into a boy , a boy into a man , a man into old man without having desire to change , you are changing each moment in your journey ........you are in different condition each moment ,thats natural , that Buddhism .



Dear Justin , you said " This is why karma is taught until one can see past this and have real understanding of what Karma is. If you do not understand what Karma causes (cloudy thinking) then you will not be able to free yourself (and become what you have always been)

this is why some people might say: before i studied Zen mountains were mountains rivers were  rivers during my study mountains were not mountains rivers were not rivers after realisation mountains are mountains rivers are rivers.
" Un-quote

In my current understanding of Buddhism , mountains is mountains because you know it from your education / from your society / from your society ....in Buddhism mountain or river or Dalai Lama or the dirt under your shoe is same and equal as you ...all are existence in their own natural process into emptiness back into nothingness same as you or me .......in Buddhism , we do not need to discover mountain as mountain is just a great source of learning to all ..... to discover yourself , to discover myself ...is not knowledge to gain but is just a source of information .

Thks CSEe




:) ok then

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