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  Posted on Aug.08.2009 @ 10:26PM EDT by chontri

If you want to know the past,
to know what has caused you,
look at yourself in the present,
for that is the past's effect.

If you want to know your future,
... continue...

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→→→→ vertical line TOPIC: THE NON-CONCEPTUAL CAN NOT BE VERBALIZED ACCURATELY WITH CONCEPTS.
vertical line Posted on Jan.24.2014 @ 09:45PM EDT by Riverstone
The non-conceptual, direct experience is not very complicated. The "problem" is actually quite logical. How do you describe the non-conceptual with concepts. I have watched arguments erupt when both parties were describing the same thing. Using Zen, becoming aware is very quick. Yet I find that studying other skillful means, supports the practice of Dharma, these other skillful means are not so quick and can be a little easier to describe conceptually. Metaphorically Zen is like the sword which cuts the Gordian knot. Gently drop opinions and concepts, let mind and body merge, breathe, have no agenda, merge intent and action. The application of the most basic instruction in Zen, is Zen. Outside of that, attempting to extrapolate, describe or theorize and you are in the conceptual.

So, anything I would have to say about Zen is immediately incorrect, because of the use of concept.

A fixed frame of reference is painful in a constantly shifting impermanent world. Sitting Zen astride the natural tumult that is, is practicing the cessation of suffering. When the tumult plateaus for a bit I may find a new frame of reference has set in. And of course when new changes occur then that new frame of reference becomes a source of misinformation and suffering. I continue my practice. Zen is immediate.

If you experience even just a moment of ultimate kindness, toward yourself and your conditioning, there is a softening toward the suffering of all beings, and a natural wish for their well being.

(Note, though I been instructed in Zen by a Soto teacher, I have attended classes at the local Zen Center, I consider myself inexpert. I have combined my practice with Tibetan/ Shambhala, and Tibetan Bon methods and through this have found a personally functioning practice that is at once immediate and gradual. I was instructed early to cultivate a collection of skillful means.)
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Reply from leoj99
Jan.24.2014
10:55PM EDT 
vertical line Yeah.. exactly.. that is why I always tell... do not think.. if you think it is only conceptual...LOL.. why is it that you all won't get it for a very long time...
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Reply from Riverstone
Jan.25.2014
12:16AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Yeah.. exactly.. that is why I always tell... do not think.. if you think it is only conceptual...LOL.. why is it that you all won't get it for a very long time...

"
.........

When we reach true silence, we are very kind to our own "short-comings". We naturally become kinder to the "short-comings" of others. Somehow perfection is found in imperfection, and there is kindness. It is not simply a matter of not thinking, but going deep into your conditioning without being swayed by it.

Do not mistake the finger for the moon.
I am not your adversary, it is my greatest wish you find the peace of silence even in the midst of the tumultuous, may we all find this.
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Reply from leoj99
Jan.25.2014
12:30AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Yeah.. exactly.. that is why I always tell... do not think.. if you think it is only conceptual...LOL.. why is it that you all won't get it for a very long time...

"
.........

When we reach true silence, we are very kind to our own "short-comings". We naturally become kinder to the "short-comings" of others. Somehow perfection is found in imperfection, and there is kindness. It is not simply a matter of not thinking, but going deep into your conditioning without being swayed by it.

Do not mistake the finger for the moon.
I am not your adversary, it is my greatest wish you find the peace of silence even in the midst of the tumultuous, may we all find this.
"
.........
Well if you don't understand whatever you say kindness is not true kindness.. for how can you be truly kind when you don't undertstand.

If you truly see the truth or see reality clearly.. your actions may be rough .. but true kindness... So the stories of Zen Masters shouting at their students.. some even cut the finger.. Gutei's finger...LOL
or Bodhidharma letter the 2nd Patriarch of Zen to freeze the whole night.. and he cut his arm...lol
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Reply from leoj99
Jan.25.2014
12:31AM EDT 
vertical line letter = letting...
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Reply from Riverstone
Jan.25.2014
01:02AM EDT 
vertical line We had some Dharma teachings at the Zen center, one week was about the mothering aspects of Zen and the next week was the fathering aspects of Zen. Sometimes people cling so hard to their notions it requires a rougher pulling of the carpet from under ones feet. Yet, this is done only by a teacher. These appear to be culturally influenced as well but I am not entirely certain. Japan can be far more stringent. When I see an unenlightened student act aggressive toward another student, that is all it is, there is no true beneficial wish for the other person. I do not justify aggression based on these stories.
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Reply from Riverstone
Jan.25.2014
01:10AM EDT 
vertical line The links between Zen Buddhism and samurai warrior culture were partly responsible for the shocking collusion of Zen and Japanese militarism in the 1930s and 1940s. For several years a virulent jingoism seized Japanese Zen, and teachings were twisted and corrupted to excuse killing. Zen institutions not only supported Japanese military aggression but raised money to manufacture war planes and weapons.

Even Zen Buddhist fall off the path. Shunryu Sazuki expressed regret for supporting WWII.
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Reply from leoj99
Jan.25.2014
04:12AM EDT 
vertical line You say non-conceptual.. yet  you continue on conceptualizing....LOL
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Reply from Riverstone
Jan.25.2014
12:59PM EDT 
vertical line You are correct. The only thing I can do is be amused by it, let it go, and keep on practicing.
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Reply from Avisitor
Jan.25.2014
02:10PM EDT 
Email Avisitor
vertical line Concepts are used to teach according to the students ability.
It is all expedient means.

One can not use a mirror to see how one looks if one has never seen a mirror.
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Reply from leoj99
Jan.25.2014
04:13PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "You are correct. The only thing I can do is be amused by it, let it go, and keep on practicing. "
.........

Practicing what?...LOL
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Reply from leoj99
Jan.25.2014
04:14PM EDT 
vertical line Practicing conceptualizing?...LOL
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Reply from leoj99
Jan.25.2014
04:15PM EDT 
vertical line You even say... non-verbal...LOL
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Reply from leoj99
Jan.25.2014
04:16PM EDT 
vertical line So what are they verbalizing in Zen Forums...LOL
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 155750
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Reply from leoj99
Jan.25.2014
04:17PM EDT 
vertical line Notice... no Zen Masters from the East go to Zen Forums...LOL
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Reply from Riverstone
Jan.25.2014
05:31PM EDT 
vertical line Actually there are at least two maybe three teachers on Zen Forum International that I would regard as masters. By practicing I mean practicing Zen. And yes, just as you, being on a forum and speaking about Zen, I get conceptual. It is a bit sticky this talking about Zen. I have noticed other schools of Buddhism do not seem to have this "problem", but it is the sudden nature of Zen. I am pretty sure the Buddha realized this and instead of starting off talking about "no mind", he started at "There is suffering.".
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Reply from leoj99
Jan.25.2014
05:50PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Actually there are at least two maybe three teachers on Zen Forum International that I would regard as masters. By practicing I mean practicing Zen. And yes, just as you, being on a forum and speaking about Zen, I get conceptual. It is a bit sticky this talking about Zen. I have noticed other schools of Buddhism do not seem to have this "problem", but it is the sudden nature of Zen. I am pretty sure the Buddha realized this and instead of starting off talking about "no mind", he started at "There is suffering."."
.........

But what is practicing Zen...LOL... is it sitting zazen and thats it?...LOL
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Reply from Riverstone
Jan.25.2014
09:35PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Actually there are at least two maybe three teachers on Zen Forum International that I would regard as masters. By practicing I mean practicing Zen. And yes, just as you, being on a forum and speaking about Zen, I get conceptual. It is a bit sticky this talking about Zen. I have noticed other schools of Buddhism do not seem to have this "problem", but it is the sudden nature of Zen. I am pretty sure the Buddha realized this and instead of starting off talking about "no mind", he started at "There is suffering."."
.........

But what is practicing Zen...LOL... is it sitting zazen and thats it?...LOL
"
.........

Yes the simplest instructions for practicing Zen are more than sufficient. At first I did not understand this I kept looking for something special. And truly I did have a moment of insight into our true nature, but that is a distraction. Zen is far more simple and ordinary.
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Reply from Riverstone
Jan.25.2014
09:45PM EDT 
vertical line Oh and Zen on the Zafu is just the start. The Zen practice can be carried into whatever you do, washing dishes, typing, filling orders, just about anything.
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Reply from leoj99
Jan.26.2014
03:51AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Oh and Zen on the Zafu is just the start. The Zen practice can be carried into whatever you do, washing dishes, typing, filling orders, just about anything. "
.........

Now it seems we are going somewhere... LOL or getting somewhere... LOL.. not somewhere over the rainbow...LOL
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Reply from Riverstone
Jan.26.2014
04:06PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "Quote: "Oh and Zen on the Zafu is just the start. The Zen practice can be carried into whatever you do, washing dishes, typing, filling orders, just about anything. "
.........

Now it seems we are going somewhere... LOL or getting somewhere... LOL.. not somewhere over the rainbow...LOL
"
.........

The Masters of Zen speak of "no thought" and another master speaks of "first thought". One master says that no thought is the practice. Another master that being there for the arrival of first thought is also the practice. Neither is incorrect.

The masters say many things that in a linear fashion are contradictory. Yet, they are not contradictory. Just do Zen, just watch the breath, just intentionally do whatever you are doing, when sadness comes let it come and let it go. When happiness comes let it come and let it go. Wash the dishes with full intention in every movement of washing dishes. This is the Prajna Blade of Zen. Nothing extraordinary, everything ordinary.
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Reply from Riverstone
Jan.26.2014
04:08PM EDT 
vertical line Everything extraordinary and everything ordinary.
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Reply from leoj99
Jan.26.2014
06:25PM EDT 
vertical line It is often that Zen Masters even contradict each other.. they have different methods of teaching their students... it is that if you are thinking it looks contradictory.. but if you can stop thinking.. there is absolutely nothing contradictory about the teachings of Zen Masters.

Even one Zen Master change his own teaching like one Zen Master at first taught: "The Buddha is the only way." but later he changed his teaching..."That Tree is the only way." ... so if you are thinking the contradiction cannot be bridged.. yet if you don't think... everything about the teaching is perfectly alright.. it is just a matter on how mature you are in the teaching...LOL
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Reply from leoj99
Jan.26.2014
06:29PM EDT 
vertical line That is why when you are thinking I am an adversary.. but if you are not thinking.. there is nothing absolutely adversarial on what i am saying..
I am just kicking your big butt....LOL .. because I know you are always spoiled in the other forum.. and your other friends, one I know who...LOL
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Reply from Riverstone
Jan.26.2014
08:15PM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "That is why when you are thinking I am an adversary.. but if you are not thinking.. there is nothing absolutely adversarial on what i am saying..
I am just kicking your big butt....LOL .. because I know you are always spoiled in the other forum.. and your other friends, one I know who...LOL


"
.........

...I am barely seen in the other forum ZFI. I tend to stay away from forums because of their exceedingly conceptual nature. But I do enjoy them once in a while. I would dare say you have some preconceived notions about me.
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Reply from leoj99
Jan.26.2014
10:50PM EDT 
vertical line Nope I am just basing what I say about you on  your posts here and the other forum... thats all...LOL
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Reply from Riverstone
Jan.27.2014
12:28AM EDT 
vertical line So judge mental.....LOL
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Reply from leoj99
Jan.27.2014
02:05AM EDT 
vertical line Quote: "So judge mental.....LOL"
.........

So what is wrong with that...LOL... you judge what you eat.. you judge what others say so you don't just follow them... me i kick their butt...LOL
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Reply from urgent
Jan.27.2014
10:57AM EDT 
Email urgent
vertical line Mahakasyapa flower.All I can see
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 155777
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Reply from Phil Space
Apr.22.2014
10:59AM EDT 
Email Phil Space
vertical line What part of 'awopbopaloobop alopbamboom' do you not understand?
vertical line Quote & Reply   Post Reply 156252
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