One day a monk paid a visit to Tinh Khong (1091-1170), a Vietnamese Zen master, who was of the tenth generation of Vo Ngon Thong lineage, and asked:
-From old days it was talked about "direct pointing", what does that mean?
CREATION & DESTRUCTION
the d.o.m.: Being with creation, no destruction can be found. Apart from creation, no destruction can be found, either. So, where destruction can be found?
Being with destruction, no creation can be found. Apart from destruction, no creation can be found, either. So, where creation can be found?
Creation and destruction do not exist at the same time, same place.
Woodsman: Then don't make them.
the d.o.m.: Mr Woodsman, You already make it.
Woodsman: I do not make time, without destroying it at once. I am for now as ever stepping out as stepping in.
Master Zen: Creation and destruction exist at the same time, they have to.
6-10 Chars: No creation, no destruction. One mind, one thought, one moment.
Number9: Creation and destruction are just words we use to describe change, like inflation and depression as regards the economy. But change is not necessarily so, as Truth, that which we call the One, the Universal Mind, God, is constant and unchanging initself. Indescribable, It just is.
That which can be anything is nothing in particular, so words like creation or destruction cannot hold It.
zen-zen: Show me death, and I'll show you there's life in it. Show me life, and I'll show you there's dying in it.
Both co-exist or neither do. Which one would you choose?
shayne: in this life.....there IS both creation and destruction and neither and change and words. yep. all you've said. but they are each.....a product of the ten million things. the ten millions things being a product on one. the universe. which each being here looks out in or otherwise.
shayne: or he doesnt. and is the life.
Lionel: FRON DOM:- Being with creation, no destruction can be found. Apart from creation, no destruction can be found, either. So, where destruction can be found? Being with destruction, no creation can be found. Apart from destruction, no creation can be found, either. So, where creation can be found?
Creation and destruction do not exist at the same time and same place.
My understanding is:- All creation are conditional interdepndent & as such are subjected for destruction. All destruction are too subjected for creation... this is cause & effect principle that i understand thus far. They are happenning spantaneously momentarily & or instantaneously under observation or exploration. As for neither creation nor destruction OR something like that, i am blur & it is beyond. It does sound like there is 'glue' or 'non-glue' for being with or apart from... creation or destruction. How can creation & destruction exist at the same time?There is very subtle momentarily one after another in them though they are working partner as pair.
However the nature of awareness such like seeing hearing smelling tasting feeling & thinking for humankind or beingness is something of kinda at unchange mode. Does it change too, i don't know, may be someone can tell us?
i am full after top up with morning breakfast therefore got a little bit extra energy to talk... Thanks for sharing your views!
the d.o.m.: From Woodsman ... I am for now as ever stepping out as stepping in.
Mr Woodsman, Just feel free to step in and step out as long as you like. But do not forget go to the kitchen, find something to eat when you're hungry.
the d.o.m.: From Lionel However the nature of awareness such like seeing hearing smelling tasting feeling & thinking for humankind or beingness is something of kinda at unchange mode. Does it change too, i don't know, may be someone can tell us?
Mr Lionel, When being with changing, no change can be found.
Hello Mr DOM, how are you? It is nice to see you walking around in the garden. It is getting dark there, please take care for wearing a transparent glass... haha & cheers~~~
Lionel: So now you don't need a glass at all! Hahaha!
Lionel: Ohhhhhh, so do when being with destruction, no destruction can be found...hahaha! It is not a great joke on earth i suppose! CHEERS~~~
the d.o.m.: From Lionel Ohhhhhh, so do when being with destruction, no destruction can be found...hahaha!
Mr Lionel, Have you actually been with any destruction? If you have, you would see no destruction at all. The d.o.m. guarantees this. Would you like to try it once?
Lionel: Dear Mr DOM, If i wasn't wrong, once upon a time ago about 10 over years ago, i thought i was going to be breathless & almost died, & or, my body was gradually disappearing on serveral occasions, i was panic & scared. Then, everything back to normal. Since then, i never forget that occasion event!
Well, if there is such a second chance arises, why not? i would like & love to try again, & this time i would go like a rocket... hahaha! Thank you for your kind advice SIR! I am listening!
zen-zen: We become instantly the thing we're feeling. I've been destruction, but I've been many other things too.
Destruction is beautiful and unnoticable when one is it. However, it's a false reality created by our own mind. A lie, just like any other thing we can become. Becoming is not a valid approach to zen.
Zorbas : Both of these are just fine with me, as long as you leave the creator and destroyer out!
zen-zen: "creator and destroyer" I don't know anything about those...
Number9: I love the Creator, and the Destroyer too, as they are one and the same.
justin: Got to agree with 9 here there is no creation no destruction just perception of these. Everything is as is.
6-10 Chars: See what I mean? No one believes me. It wouldn't matter if they did. One mind, one thought, one moment. No past, no future. No being, no becoming. Memory is an illusion. What? You remember remembering? Or do you remember remembering remembering? All is One, a single idea lasting only an instant.
justin: ‘No creation, no destruction. One mind, one thought, one moment.’
Yes, Can’t see what you mean, but I do believe you do. :)
But ‘All is One, a single idea lasting only an instant.’
I would say; All is one, single, purveying the infinite instant.
But again I AM deluded, and this is boxing, I sometimes think of myself as a gift wrapper. :)
6-10 Chars: I write this haiku for justin: You are smart and kind. This broken castle thanks you. I wish I were you.
Woodsman: One chocolate brownie I have destroyed, but there is thanks, before and after the start.
justin: thankyou, for the haiku but I am not smart. I will carry this haiku. As I would a flower. Thankyou for this gift!
Zorbas: ooooo, I like brownies! Could you create some more for us! We could sit and mave milk and browines. Meybe whisper sweetness in each others ears! What a grand time
Woodsman: Tastes like pain, smells like fear.
Zorbas: Yes, But thats O.K. If you see it for what it is. Yeah?
Woodsman: It is a gateway.
Woodsman: a perimeter, a boundary, a deep question:
Zorbas: Well, mostly I see pain and fear, as pain and fear. A thing that I have created by my love for myself and my life, or maybe a I should say that it comes with the terratory of being?. But understanding it is a gateway to Happiness.
Woodsman: I almost felt that sincerity.
6-10 Chars: from Zorbas: "...understanding it is a gateway to Happiness."
OUCH. Maybe you are right. Many, many, many smart people disagree. I am not one of them. :-) Happy, happy...
justin: I keep telling you people there is no happiness-sadness, bravery-fear, like-dislike, empty-full, all is as is! There is no cherished gate, no heavens, nothing to seek or anything we have ever been apart from. These are words to describe our delusions (i say we but i am the worst of all) We only continue with dualisms, and cherished opinions. The opinionater.
zen-zen: I have a very strong opinion about this matter! ... err. I seem to have forgotten it. Darn.
justin: your 'bad' memory saves you, hahaha
zen-zen: Yeah! So, I've been "saved" now!
Woodsman: If you know, we're all in trouble.
zen-zen: Troubled individuals... The world is too full of that. We have a common problem, almost all of us hu-nams. To figure out what's the problem is the hard part. If we see the problem, it vanishes. So - What's the problem?
greendale: YOU, YOU ARE THE PROBLEM!!
zen-zen: Yes. And you. And we.
Woodsman: Sloughing off the selfmade-skin I reach the garden in time for another change. The weather has a noticable change too, and the ground gets covered in a thick wet snow, slushy mush, I slide in. This Chirstmas, I have swallowed my pride, and take the high-pitched whiney voiced pseudo-brother-in-law who thinks he is a symphonic whistler to be my new found friend. Dress me like a whore. I'll wrap him up and put him under the tree, and open him last, leaving off the nametag by accident. I'll leave a lipstick smooch on his sweaty forehead, vertical-like. Being sober as a church mouse my voice will resemble all the innanimate sounds, as I talk with the piano bench, and play a symphonic jig for nonlisteners on moonblinds. I won't shut any doors, or mouths either, but be a selfmade-mirror, to see what shape that the world is in, ungapped and toothless, yet still scared and sacred. Oh sure.
justin: Green, Trys to bring a problem into the forum, but leaves with it to, we here already to full of our own (don’t mean to speak for everyone else, forgive me) or to empty to be taking Greens problem home with us, but if it is the nature of Green then it is.
justin: And therefore no problem at all.
6-10 Chars: Woodsman, you kill me. I concede your poeticalness. I have a little money, a fast computer, and a mean streak.
If we combine, can we conquer the world?
Woodsman: Been done before, now I unconquer it. Behold, the unconquered world. Sense what shakes between your feet, between your knees, between your eyelids. Up, you reach for Nirvana. The world groans for it, you hear it, and surrender nothing.
lehish: >now I unconquer<
imagined "I" cannot backward-un
Woodsman: Oh you can too.
6-10 Chars: Woodsman is right. Lehish, have you ever conquered the world? Woodsman, I own a chainsaw, two lawnmowers, a van and tools.
lehish: what's to conquer?
6-10 Chars: A chainsaw, two lawnmowers, a van and tools. Oh, yeah. And the freakin' universe.
lehish: you enjoy believing that?
Woodsman: lehishis' gettin' a little pissy
lehish: u imagining which not happening
lehish: is that what woods wants to imagine?
Woodsman: is that what woods wants to imagine?
lehish: woods like trying clevering?
Woodsman: me thinks that thou dost protest too much, ya know, no?