Chang-ch'o, an educated man, once asked the Chinese Ch'an master Chih-t'sang:
-Is there paradise or hell?
-That is not correct. When I was studying under the
COWARD & HELL
the d.o.m.: Today, the d.o.m. got a little of time to look randomly through the posts on this board. One of the posts talked about a romantic Japanese Zen monk named Ikkyu that reninds him about a story of the Japanese Zen monk. About five years ago, one of the d.o.m.'s friends retold a story of a romantic Japanese Zen monk named Ikkyu and a geisha named "Hell".
Hell was a very well-known geisha of the city of the rich people at that time. She had a very good shape body and very talented in seducting men to spend their money and energy to her. One day she heard about the romantic Zen monk Ikkyu was on the way to the city from his mountain. She immediately send a letter challenged the monk by inviting him come to see her at her place. And of course, the romantic monk Ikkyu replied her letter at some degree.
However, the monk was cautious. He investigated about this geisha. The information source let him know that "Hell" was very powerful in sex and hardly satisfy her lust. When he knew that, he did not come to see "Hell". Then he was gone next morning.
After telling the story, the man asked the d.o.m.: -What do you think, my friend? The d.o.m. asked back: -Think of what? -Was Ikkyu a coward or a smart man? -I don't know. -Why you said you don't know. -Because I am not Ikkyu. -What would you do if you were in the situation of Ikkyu? -I wouldn't go into that Hell. -Are you afraid of going into that Hell? -No. -Are you afraid of the fire in Hell will be burning you? -No. -So, why you don't want to go into Hell? -I just don't want. -What if Hell came and asked you to satisfy her? -She couldn't. -Why did you say so? -The fire of lust was burning her litlle by little, moment by monent in the rest of life, especially when her body starts to decay itself, the body beauty will be gone and no man wanted her body any more. She would die in desperation. -You're right, my friend. "Hell" in the story of the romantic Zen monk Ikkyu died in such situation. -I did not know that either. -Could you help her a little bit? -No. No one could. -Why not? -What she wanted was sexual pleasure, making men slaves to her lust and lust dominated her totally. -Thanks. -No problem.
shayne: seems about right to me. Master Zen: Ikkyu could have told her; it is your body that hungers for sex, not you. See the difference.
6-10 Chars: A beautiful woman is famous for her ability to please men? If her body is clean of disease, go for it!!! Why not have a good time? At least showing up and talking would be polite! Sometimes this forum makes me think maybe I don't understand Zen. I honestly thought it was about discovering our true nature and embracing it, but zazen and four noble truths and eightfold path seem to be about denying our nature and negating desire. I learned about Zen by reading D.T. Suzuki's account of how Hui-neng became the Sixth Patriarch. The head monk Shen-hsiu tried to win the title by writing this poem:
The body is the bodhi tree, The mind is like a clear mirror. At all times we must strive to polish it, And must not let the dust collect.
When Hui-neng heard it, he knew immediately that it was wrong, and wrote this poem in response:
Bodhi originally has no tree, The mirror also has no stand. Buddha nature is always clean and pure; Where is there room for dust?
I was maybe 22 years old when I read that, and everything changed afterward. I felt as though all the mysteries of the universe became like child's play. The story said that although Hui-neng was just a worker in the kitchen, the Fifth Patriarch Hung-jen knew that he had found his rightful successor. This angered so many people that Hui-neng had to sneak away and form his school far away, and this is the start of Zen as I understand it today with koans and satori.
Does anyone else feel like there are "two Zens?" Ikkyu should have gone to Hell and shown her Heaven! What's to say she wouldn't have fallen in love with him? Instead of two happy people, there is one frustrated person and one boring monk!
Polly: I agree with you 6-10...he should have just gone for it.
miwuwei: look how bigots can destroyhistoricaltruth...the real ikkuy was well know to enjoy all pleasures of life+ was fighting against the so called mannered rules!thats amazinghow some can turn him around into a "saint clean picture".....but thats how the human mind works!
zen-zen: By the way, Ikkyu is probably just a name picked for the story. The name means "first degree" which quite clearly equals to "beginner". How convenient that a zen monk had a name ikkyu when we all try to have the so-called beginner's mind! There are no two zen's for the mind and the body. There can be only one! (from the movie highlander). ;)
miwuwei: by the way,look how you talk about the pleasures of women....zen as vagina dentalis phobia...gosh,man,go into sexual therapy!.....as i said...enlightment is orgastic or it is not...zen is´nt a mousehole for sensual cowards!deal with your fears in a different manner than putting it down...the old story of the to high grapes+ the fox calling them sour!....whats next,gonna burn some witches!gonna join the yihad(all evil comes from the females!),even if it would be written in scriptures...maybe the asian middle age was nt wiser than ours!+beside that,the buddhist macho mentality of asia permits the sex tourism in bangkok!get ober it!search the green tara!
6-10 Chars: Who? Me? You say men macho-compensate when they try to dominate! you say they're mother-traumatized when they're submissive! you say men are monkey-players when they are promiscuous! And now you say men are misogynists if they are careful? Do I understand you? You make jokes? Ich hab' Dich sehr gern, aber was hast Du gegen Maenner neulich? Wir sind auch ja Menschen! Uebrigens gibt es auch schoene, wilde Methoden, sogar Therapeutinnen zu befriedenen! Da haettest Du Therapie! Enlightenment is orgiastic for some, aesthetic for others. In the same way, sex is an orgy for some, an act of holiness for other. My personal preference is to !@#$ and #$%!& like tomorrow we die, but I try to respect the aesthetic sense of others. Okay?
6-10 Chars: Oops, sorry, miwuwei. At first I thought you were talking about my commentary using Zen as vagina dentalis phobia, but now I think you mean the STORY. Oops! I've been drinking wine and forgot I'm not the center of the universe! My bad.
Trotzdem habe ich etwas fuer Dich...aber der Wein schmeckt ja auch lecker noch, wenn der Dentalis festbleibt! Nicht boese sein!
miwuwei: yes, i meant the story!...as ikkuy is one of my favorit,i was upset to see how they act with this poor devil,.....smelled too bad the nietzsche sister cutting out his books!lol ist schon ok,aver danke für die korrektur!,ja,ja der wein....,macht ein bissien wirr beim gerade aus gucken!lol...bin doch gar nicht SO!lol
Lynn: um-m-m kinda feels like you could read this story in two ways? First from where you are at (or for myself from where I first saw it) then from where it might be, or from where you'd like it.
Lynn: or maybe is it like a thrid story, the one that knows nothing about morals and who this person is suppose to be, but the feeling one got when first read?
6-10 Chars: That's a great thought, Lynn, if I understand you. So maybe the story has no message at all, but is only designed to get a reaction? Well, it sure got a reaction! Still, I don't like that Ikkyu felt he had to research this woman's reputation, and even less that he allowed her reputation to determine whether he'd visit. But maybe like you said, this story was meant to test a student's understanding. Maybe the master was looking for the student to stand firm against unproductive dogma!
DeZachster: Perhaps we're too caught up in the female symbolism of the story and are missing the metaphor? I don't think that going for the girl would be bad... and although this (dated?) story uses women as the symbol for the hell produced from giving in to desire and getting lost in it, I think that is solely the point. No doubt some society would try to bend this story to an additional adgenda of morality and sexual repression (as societies do), but if we look past that, I think the point is simply to avoid the hell of desire and attachment in an overly anicdotal form. The geisha is even named Hell. Therefore, Ikkyu could not change Hell because she WAS desire. You can't change your desire, but you can become unattached from it as Ikkyu did... just by standing her up. Had she been a real girl, however, I'm sure Ikkyu would have given her hell.. ha ha ha...
6-10 Chars: DeZachster, that's beautiful because it's so simple. A combination of hormones and wine made me see the literal meaning! Something else I noticed: on topics conscerning, we are at our best and our worst!
zen-zen: Maybe she just didn't turn the guy on? I've been approached the same way occasionally, and I don't remember ever taking my chances with the too eager females. What if Ikkyu just had a bad day and didn't feel like 'going for a bush'? Or, even more he may just have considered the possibility of veneral diseases and skip it. Call me a cynic if you want, but I don't want privacy.
Lynn: I'm not sure about this name called Hell (maybe meant to throw you off) but how come I can read this and find Ikkyu and her together?
zen-zen: You're right.
DeZachster: The desire of Hell and for Hell's desire seduces everyman. Are you seduced by your desire? Who isn't? Desire called to Ikkyu when he was unattached far on his mountain and he came closer and 'investigated' it but did not indulge. Still unattached. Just reiterating.
miwuwei: ok...ikkyu had tried to fight the traditional zen all his life...seems i must help him now to put that right!(he must be whirling in his grave!)...so..in one of his poems he writes:
......IN drinking places+ in whore houses at HOME!!!!!!!who from the scripture monks would ever come to greet me!
....gosh...look what you´ve done to my song,i only can say!......!!!!!
6-10 Chars: Okay, Lynn, now I see it. Duh. I'm slow. Friday night. Wine. Yes, people. Look at the last line. He refused her publicly, and then rocked her world like a heavy-metal drummer.
DeZachster: I don't think you sing alone. So in drinking and in whore houses.... fine. Drink, play with the ladies, but all the time, not lost in desire's delusion. Unattached play is not playful? Why not?
Unattached sex is wonderful! Why would it not be so with a whore? Only delusion would add negativity to such a distinction anyway. 'Eeww, a whore'... diseases would be karma, but the person is there. No?
I think it was the attachment trap that Ikkyu was avoiding (symbolically in this story), in order to keep his playful spirit...not just to conform to some behavior of traditional zen dogma.
stephen: I once had a professor of comparative religions who on the first day of class would ask all of the woman in the front row of the class room to cross their legs. He would then state,” now that the gates of hell are closed we may proceed.” MU
ilogos: well...strange, what can happen to the mammalian brain when semen, that holy jissom juice, gets backed all the way up the cerebral cortex...wait at the gates in your penance vest!
miwuwei: i prefer the pic of manet"the origin of the world!",than this stupid professor!..how near the islam fundamendtalist dealer who tell girls to not wear short dresses in the suburbs or he woll spamk them!.....non attached?...sometimes ,i wonder if behind the non attachement a non engament is meant in nice clothes!..i know a monk in buddhist chat who cybered with all of us girls without telling+got offended after we girls found out+laughed!playing the upset holy monk+calling the room immature!he even called some zen authoritys!...without compassion,even the nicest concepts are mindfuck with pretty rubbons!
DeZachster: ...And compassion is the connection with others that comes with non-attachment, right? For me, non-attached doesn't equal non-engaged but on the contrary, even more so... non-engaged with my own ideas of a person so as to see through idea/conception clouds and strengthen a connection. That's just me and I can't do this all the time; however, are we not agreeing here and above or am I missing something?
The prof: situationally funny/icebreaking and sexist.
zbishak: The >HAND< grasping the, Chair, Door, Tree, Flower, Breast, Leg, Whatever, Feels only itself,
Where the hand has no stand, What dusts of hell to collect.
the d.o.m.: Mr 6-10 Chars, If you'd like to for it or go into it, just go ahead. And it's your own business. No one could interferes.
The d.o.m. is not Shen-hsiu or Hui-neng. He is just himself.
the d.o.m.: Mr Shayne, What's your point? Do you still keep pointing or stop it because your finger's getting tired?
shayne: no point. im just agreeing with whats said.
shayne: which is my point.....
miwuwei: oh, good lord!..dom is coming out of his safe hole!....watch out your back!someone could gibe ya´a hug!
zen-zen: How about a poem for a change? ----------------------------------
Nowadays, I wake up easilly in the mornings after enjoying the dreams. No coffee would be needed I like to drink it anyway!
miwuwei: nowadays when i cook myself a tea, i do that in an unheaten kitchen!...brrrrrr!(not to mention washing myself in a cold bath,or my cold but somewhere else!lol)may i survive this winter!old farms delights!
zen-zen: Uh oh, Miwu, quite a lady you are. I'd buy some firewood for the winter colds!
6-10 Chars: Hey! [just kidding!]
fatnhappy: ((((((((((((())))))))))))) hugs are the best thing to keep you warm in the winter well soooo ive come to discover :)
miwuwei: seems a lot of galant helpers around!thanks guys!looks like magical mystery tour arriving at my door!
6-10 Chars: Both of you were in forum before me. Is lust contagious? She becomes more beautiful with each admirer! I have no problem to share! Zen is cruel!
fatnhappy: to recieve love you must unconditionaly give it i belive . ten hugs a day keeps your seritonin flowin :) miwuwei: i think boys knows that i love them!dont ya´?
fatnhappy: but hugs and a fireplace go hand in hand right zz.
fatnhappy: in the colorful redirection of your spirit you led me here and there i was before, no more. to reflect your energy back at you with smiles and kind words even in times of sadness love lessens the maddness. i love. simplely said yet words when spoken are dead. please for my heart is weak and needs stability stay here with me. while meaningless words pour from my tounge love slips from your mind and bell then is rung. yet love not being a word, absurd. what else could it be for noone whos said love has meant it to me.
zen-zen: Doh. Go and buy some wood. It's going to get cold.
Doreen: fnh - "what else could it be for noone whos said love has meant it to me."
not true...I do. Blessings.
the d.o.m. & Visitors 11/11/2004
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