Ching-yuan Wei-hsin, a Chinese Ch'an master, once said this:
Thirty years ago, when having not studied Ch'an, this monk saw mountain was mountains and water was water.
Later, when following the good teacher's guide, this monk...
A QUESTION ABOUT THE RIGHT OF FREEDOM
the d.o.m.: Great thinkers & talkers,
About the right of freedom, this deluded old man has a question:
Is our right of freedom (such as the right of freedom of speech, etc...) limited or unlimited when we as human beings living on this earth? If it is limited, then where is the limits, and can we put an end to its limitation?
6-10 Chars: If there is freedom, it is infinite. If there are limits, there is no freedom. If we are free now, we will always be free. If we are not free now, we will never be free.
Doreen: When you free yourself from the illusion of fear, then you can be really free.
ajraab: when you have said something out of control by overstepping your "limits" and you make others suffer your limits define your freedom and also your freedom defines your limits they do not compete with each other truely but support each other remember that temporal freedom is not free
ajraab: the definition of freedom is to have no cost are you free to walk off a cliff without cost? suffering is a cost you can make people happy and reap no costly results if you do it according to the eightfold path while remembering the four noble truths.
Polly: The limitations are on this forum, amongst other places.
»miwuwei: well,real freedom includes the recognition of interdependence!so,not worry about freedom!...as neil observed in summerhill+i did i my groups too...people having been under discipline act in a chaotic furry when "let free"...real free ones dont!the more you "better"the animal,the more you get him"bad"!
zen-zen: If we want to discuss freedom, we must first define it. Yes. How difficult. Do we speak about freedom in the US-political viewpoint? Or do we look at it from zenish viewpoint and don't try to explain it? Or shall we discuss the traditional question about free will and freedom? Is freedom something we can have, or is it just a wish? How does freedom correlate with the self and it's desires? Or doesn't it? And can we have the right for such thing as freedom? Usually, if we are granted a right, there's an authorizer. Who authorized your freedom?
6-10 Chars: Polly?
Number9: If a small child farts, it will probably be okay to laugh. The child will laugh too as will everyone else. If the Emperor farts it is probably not okay to laugh. It could cost you your head. Either way it is a question of dealing with things as It is.
miwuwei: the emperor is very naked this days!...difficult to not laugh!
6-10 Chars: Nice: a discussion of freedom and limits becomes an excuse for pretty nymphs to dance naked in the moonlight. Oh, wait, that was my imagination. Unfair! Tricked by perception!
Polly: but if you're a woman and you fart in front of Number 9, beware.
miwuwei: better god pan than jesus daddy!said the giggeling nymph jumping over the bush!
poor monk: Our freedom to express ourselves to the outside world is already limited. We are limited by the meanings of our words, by the sphere of our physical movements, by distance, by the perceptions of others. Our ability to express ourselvesto ourselves is also limited by a similar range of conditionalexperiences. We define our day to day lives by our experience of limitation. To say that we cannot be limited and be free is false.
So should we moderate our language? Should we have it moderated for us? When what we say has the potential to bring about suffering in our fellow beings? Do we care for the suffering of our fellow beings? The limitation of free speech is traditionally associated with repression and the potential for greater suffering. Who has the right to decide what another person should or should not say?
Lynn: Having the most concentrated structure can bring much freedom and having the least concentrated structure can bring much freedom. Having the most concentrated structure can bring little freedom and having the least concentrated structure can bring little freedom. What do you expect?
poor monk: >Having the most concentrated structure can bring much freedom and having the least concentrated structure can bring much freedom. Having the most concentrated structure can bring little freedom and having the least concentrated structure can bring little freedom. What do you expect?
Quite so. In all structures there is freedom. In all structures there is limitation. When you are in it, what difference does it make? If you are outside it, what are you?
miwuwei: misce stultitiam consiliis brevem,dolce est desipere in loco!horaz(mix some short foolishness in your wise planing,it´s delicious to be unwise where it is the right place!)
ilogos: the 'rights' we award ourselves are often at the expense of the rights of others and this includes other species...some believe they have the right to defend their homeland from agressors...they perceive themselves to be 'freedom-fighters' while their agressor perceives them to be terrorists and an enemy of 'freedom'.
Helios: freedom in limitation, limitation in freedom no freedom no limitation freedom is freedom limitation is limitation
zen-zen: I find it quite hard to approach the concepts of freedom or limitation since they are quite abstract and we here tend to like reality around us. So - it's like trying to discuss whether the concept (/word) 'abstraction' has any counterpart in the world around us.
the d.o.m.: Mr Ajraab, Mr. Poor Monk, Mr. Ilogos, You all have good words here. Thanks for the answers.
the d.o.m.: Ms. Polly, You're right. The limitations are on this forum. How do you feel about it? Comfortable or uncomfortable?
shayne: i find the universe inside and out to be openended. how far one travels is the question. but you need not go far. limitation is self imposed. besides everything you need is right under foot. yes verbal words are extremly limtiting.
6-10 Chars: When I said "Polly?" I was asking about her statement that this forum is limited. I was surprised, because I find this forum very liberating, but then D.O.M agreed with her, so now I'm even more curious.
The thing is, aren't limitations only illusions formed by frustrated desire? That's what I meant when I said, "If we are not free now, we will never be free." For example, if I want to see Polly in the shower, then this forum is limiting. However, since I don't want to see Polly in the shower, then I am not limited in this way. Besides, IMAGINING Polly in the shower is more fun anyway, especially when Doreen joins her.
So I'm really asking now--where are the limits? I can honestly say at this moment that I am 100% free, and that I am the only one who can ever limit me. Maybe that sounds like silly new-age B.S., but I actually mean it more in the serious existential sense, similar to what I imagine Jean-Paul Sartre and Camus intended.
Hey, miwuwei, you should know about Sartre and Camus (they're French, right?). What's your opinion on freedom? Aren't we always free? Aren't limits illusory?
miwuwei: well,my mum was an existentialist painter in paris+ gf of boris vian...sartre+simone+camus part of our house as child,so...do you really espect me to read auntys+uncles stuff?lol,sitting on their lapp was just plenty!must be a virus!...by the way..i agree with mum...camus was the nicest of them!
Polly: >Ms. Polly, You're right. The limitations are on this forum. How do you feel about it? Comfortable or uncomfortable?<
Great! I feel like going out and buying a bag of compost and some pots in which to plant my cuttings that have now grown roots. Then I am going to buy a pair of knitting needles and knit some flowers for my shoes :-)
6-10 Chars: Polly, I want some of whatever drug you're on! Somebody should start a thread of discussion about anti-depressants. My everyone I know thinks I should go on medication for "depression," but they only say that because I think so much. Am I sick? Doesn't everyone on this forum think more than most people, and isn't that why Zen no-mind is so pleasant?
miwuwei: dont mind them 6-10!,my dad told allready from me at 3 ,i would think to much,at 8,i would read to much,at 12 i should go in treatment(i did nt!)...my bioenergetic teacher said later to me!"rarely saw a such healthy human!you will have trouble finding similars!",so,who was right!...doupt those who tell you oversensible or too toughtfull...you may have irritate them in their sleep!...working once with R.D.Laing,we did great in psychiatry without any drug!....you may miss some love around you,like we all do...mostly!thats all!let´s change this world to a better place!+please dont get a prozac junkie...look where it leeds them at elections!this flat wellbehavers!
poor monk: >the 'rights' we award ourselves are often at the expense of the rights of others<
Yes, I have always been fascinated by the notion of 'rights'. (Inalienable and true) Many people are very taken with the notion of 'their rights'but are often not very interested in the question of their duties, their responsibilities as sentient beings. It is pretty difficult to avoid the fact that everything we do, is necessarily done at the expense of something else. As vegetarians and vegans we sometimes forget that we consume living things as well. Although, even if we ate rocks what would be the difference?
We all exist, we all persist at the expense of other sentient beings. What are our duties?
Lynn: Does this have to be? "at the expense"? what if we interchanged with one another, so to speak... then no lose, no gain.?
poor monk: >Aren't we always free? Aren't limits illusory?<
You let go of the branch. You fall out of the tree. You may decide to let go (although fatigue may do it for you) but you do not 'decide' to hit the ground. A man, standing behind you, pulls a gun and shoots you in the head. Are you free to decide how far bits of your brain goes? There are always choices, but how do you know the choice you make at any given point is even relevant? Who cares? One day while walking through the wilderness a man stumbled upon a vicious tiger. He ran but soon stumbled over the edge of a high cliff. Desperately, he reached out and grasped a vine and dangled over the fatal precipice. As he hung there, two mice appeared from a hole in the cliff and began gnawing on the vine. Suddenly, he noticed on the vine a plump wild strawberry. He plucked it and popped it in his mouth. How sweet it tasted!
poor monk: Does it have to be 'at the expense', Lynn? On reflection, not necessarily. I could equally say we are lovingly supported by the gifts of other sentient beings. But it strikes me that, looking out across the state of the world, that that doesn't quite ring true. I have always tried to limit my impact on the rest of the world - to minimise any unnecessary suffering I might inflict, but I have to admit that I've probably (no, definitely) done it within the confines of a fairly narrow and self interested agenda. Pointing out that other things live at 'my expense' also, is completely valid. But is it more than just a shade of meaning which separates parasitism from mutualism?
Polly: PM, You always put your thoughts down very eloquently and clearly. I like that!
poor monk: Aw, gee, shucks. Ya shouldn't oughta say things like that. I have a high enough opinion of myself as it is (why else would I call myself 'poor monk'?). I'm going to need a crowbar to lever my head through the door frame now. :D
the d.o.m.: From 6-10 Chars When I said "Polly?" I was asking about her statement that this forum is limited. I was surprised, because I find this forum very liberating, but then D.O.M agreed with her, so now I'm even more curious.
Mr 6-10 Chars, The feeling each person might have about this forum might vary. You might feel it free but others might feel it too limited, too confined...and they might want to liberate it. What the d.o.m. has talked to Ms Polly because he just wanted to know how she really felt about it. That's all.
6-10 Chars: Interesting thought. We should get everybody together for a big party!
miwuwei: why not an orgy!...lol....in another chat, we used to have a portait gallery of all,that was nice too!
the d.o.m. & Visitors 11/09/2004
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