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  In reading scriptures and studying the doctrines, you should turn all words
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WHAT DOES THE LIMITLESS FREEDOM FEAR?
the d.o.m. What does the "limitless freedom" fear?

From shayne ummmm........dont know. nothing.

the only time i fear is when i try to attach to something and cause insecurity instead of being free.

one could say emptiness....but to me this is a thing as well.

so really i fear nothing.

maybe this is too generic.

From 6-10 Chars

Is this question too big, or is my understanding too small?

From shayne both.

From 6-10 Chars

I've been meditating on this question, and I think I understand.

Limitless freedom fears stillness.

From ajraab limitless freedom fears the perception of fear which is truely limitless bondage

From Lionel Haha, does light fear too...? Even the existing sun's ray is limited in the vast limitless universe, does it fear of shinning itself...? What's more to limitless freedom...? The sun is alone & what does it fear of?

From miwuwei

d.o.m.is only hidding his freedomfearfullbastardbone behind great thinker questions!

From Polly limitless freedom??? fearing??? How can limitless freedom feel anything, be aware of anything, let alone an 'emotion' or reaction? That's like saying what does the waterfall fear, or the moon, or emptiness.

From 6-10 Chars

I mean, in Zen we learn to be concrete, and this question seems to take the cake for obscurity. I had to guess at a "translation" before even answering. This is what I "think" the question was asking:

"When one feels freedom and can find no limits, what is there to fear?"

In such a situation, the only thing to fear is stillness.

However, I also agree with mimuwei. Dom has asked us what limitless freedom fears. We will know better when dom shows his weakness.

From Polly >"When one feels freedom and can find no limits, what is there to fear?"< One can't *feel* limitless freedom. But when experienced, the question 'what is there to fear?' has no place.

From Polly Furthermore, 'the' limitless freedom suggests it's a thing. Limitless freedom is not a thing.

From 6-10 Chars

Polly, I agree 100%. I'm just trying really hard to make sense of the question. Maybe you can help me. Is d.o.m. the administrator of this site? I was thinking somehow that he's the head honcho and that his questions were intended to be taken seriously, even if they're obviously overblown. Who is this guy, everybody?!

Unless he's earned some magical respect, he either needs to show his true self--or he needs to show his true self!

Until he shows his true self, I'm the head honcho.

Gather 'round, children, and be taught.

From 6-10 Chars One of my students said to me yesterday:

"you are the real god, all the other gods are false"

I thanked him, and praised Zen.

From Polly 6-10 dom 'regulates' the site :-) I believe he is 'administrator', although I'm not sure what term he would assign himself in the context of his relationship to the site. lol...Maybe that's the next question.

Additionally, I wouldn't try too hard to figure out the 'meaning' of the question. For everyone it'll mean something different. I think the 'enquiry' is the point, although I don't think this particular question requires much enquiry. Not from me anyway, but then that's where the 'problem' with words arises.

From Polly >One of my students said to me yesterday: "you are the real god, all the other gods are false"

I thanked him....<

The student needs another teacher. The teacher needs another job.

lol.

From 6-10 Chars

The problem is the INTERNET!

If I studied at his feet, I would better know his meaning!

From Polly no.

From 6-10 Chars

d.o.m., please--your disciples hunger for you more than air!

From zen-zen Ahym, vague terms and vague meanings. Was the question appropriate? The most important thing is to ask the proper questions, not to find the proper answers. What is the essence of the question here, what are we inquiring? Somehow, just I can't grasp it.

From 6-10 Chars zen-zen, here's the story:

the question: "What does the 'limitless freedom' fear?"

the questioner: the d.o.m., site administrator.

the response: Only d.o.m. knows for sure the meaning of the words "limitless freedom." As administrator of this forum, d.o.m. also has "limitless freedom" over its existence. Also, if nobody posted anything at all, then the forum would cease to exist, so all of us together also have "limitless freedom."

Therefore, "limitless freedom" fears for d.o.m.'s love of Zen understanding and teaching.

That is why limitless freedom fears only stillness, and d.o.m.'s disciples hunger for him more than air.

From miwuwei

i think moliere wrote a play about such sophists...lol...les précieuses ridicules!

From shayne 6-10 chars...........got it. limitless freedom fears stillness.

cause its always looking for a something.

i personally just have what i want.

sometimes i go searching after knowledge.

sometimes not.

sometimes a seeker.

sometimes a seer.

simply put i do as my mind does.

and what i dont want to do...or repeat.

From Lynn "limitless freedom" would be free to fear anything there is to fear

From shayne that too lynn.

From ilogos i think most here would be too fearful of 'limitless freedom'...lol

From shayne most are. i tend to obsess over differant ideas floating around in my head and from here from time to time....but ichange my mind so quick its sick.

just kinda obsessive compulsive.

so i deal with that too.

but obsessive compulsives make for good concentration.

haha.

From Lynn that too what Shayne? I woke this morning with a sense of ineasiness, a shakiness. and i say, "this is fear", but I wonder if I just label this uneasiness, soon questions arise where did this fear come from? soon i start to question to right and wrong.

From 6-10 Chars

Lynn: "limitless freedom" would be free to fear anything Shayne: that too lynn = shayne agree (yes?) Lynn: I woke this morning with a sense of ineasiness...

Me too. I feel anxious today. Is this "karma?"

In times like this I ask, "What happened?"

Maybe too much freedom. Thank you d.o.m.!

From shayne some are restricted. cant see.

some are very free.

cant sit still.

yes your right the mind does not have to point. it can rest. not move and be unmoving still emptiness.

but a fly alights and mind moves and its wisked away.

used. used to point and think.

ive waxed and waned to be able to comprehend 3 conversations going on at once to barely being able to have one.

mind not pointing at any single thing.

but also mind or emptiness looking for things if wanting.

or i.

i looking into mind ( or the storehouse of information )

or

not looking.

but being it and realizing what we look at is the best remedy to me.

be i....so its less and less pointy.

that way it just points at whats substantial. or real.

when i work....i point to nothing.

there is no pointing to this or that.

if i do....it becomes....too fast. and...glitchy. one thing than the next.

if i dont point or latch unto "things" one at a time even the most fastest is slow.

it is evenflow. and calm....just im moving fast...or it is.

chon tri........id apprecaite your comments.

im assuming this is also what don talks about as "one"

though i say dont say one.

just say the mind that does not point but is still but the same mind is satori. or realized mind/i . i just point less and less at falsities.

correct? no? yes right?

im still gonna think.

hahaha.

and point.

cause i am free.

wobba wobba.

From the d.o.m. From 6-10 Chars d.o.m., please--your disciples hunger for you more than air!

Mr 6-10 Chars, The d.o.m. thinks that you have said something not correct here. The d.o.m. is not someone sepecial at all in any way. He is just a man who comes to this forum - like you and any others - together to discover ourselves and things around us, to explore the unkown, to understand it and lean from it moment by moment. There is no teacher or student in this work.

One of what the d.o.m. could find out is what one needs to do for himself is to stand on his own firmly. He may listen every source of information, understands it clearly and thoroughly, then let it go as it came. This means do not accumulate what he learned as his knowledge, including his own experience or others' experiences. Because experiences are limited, therefore, knowledge is limited. Both of them belong to the past and stored in memory. All of our thoughts, actions, and reaction are based on the memory. If we take the past and put it on what is right in front of us and we consider it's new. This is not correct. This is like we are wearing a colored sunglasses to see things and say this thing is green or that thing is brown.

Why is it said that experiences are limited? All the experiences we have had so far were based on the perception of objects through our six sense bases: eye, ear, nose, tongue, body and intellect. And the capacity of each of six sense bases is limited, one-sided or fragmented, not the wholeness. This is the reason why we must be aware and awake momemt by moment, and to be aware and awake is not not an easy work to do.

Take care,

» Delete this message ° Post Reply ° Email User ° User's Other Postings 17181 Nov.14.2004 02:11 AM From miwuwei

so dom,talking about yourself in the 3 person or as we!....what about a simple I.....!that would sound like a simple human in my ears!

» Delete this message ° Post Reply ° Email User ° User's Other Postings 17204 Nov.14.2004 03:36 AM From 6-10 Chars

I like you, d.o.m.! You should show yourself more often!

You say, "to be aware and awake is not not an easy work to do."

How wonderful for you! I have trouble to NOT be awake and aware!

» Delete this message ° Post Reply ° Email User ° User's Other Postings 17211 Nov.14.2004 03:50 AM From shayne some do 6-10. to me awareness is easy. as a matter of fact i DONT try. but this is the paradox as well.

i am my mind totally...so i dont fight with myself no more.

i understand d.o.m.s words precisely. its new with each moment anyway. the quest for new info is just that. it can be neverending too. but its supposed to be.

but the quest for info to make one whole is no good. we are already.

we have nothing. we are pure attention. and its whole.

the personality moment to moment. always fresh and the thoughts. and life.

we are faced with it anyway. to be honest.

» Delete this message ° Post Reply ° Email User ° User's Other Postings 17213 Nov.14.2004 03:53 AM From shayne and yes the something special. this donates a thing. empty mind is empty mind it is not a thing pointed at. so yes some are special.

but few and i mean very very very few are really not special at all.

and you cant be egotastical about it.

cause...well..............you aint nothing special.

mind free.

others have. collect. limited.

me digging it....haha

» Delete this message ° Post Reply ° Email User ° User's Other Postings 17214 Nov.14.2004 04:42 AM From 6-10 Chars

from Shayne: "we have nothing. we are pure attention. and its whole."

That is beautiful, Shayne.

I begin to like your words. Sometimes too many words, but nice mind.

» Delete this message ° Post Reply ° Email User ° User's Other Postings 17227 Nov.15.2004 09:41 AM From Doreen “The intelligent want self-control; children want candy.” ~ Mevlana Rumi

» Delete this message ° Post Reply ° Email User ° User's Other Postings 17419 Nov.15.2004 11:53 AM From miwuwei

selfcontrol is for those without an inner backbone,those having one can play flexible!they dance frunk of godliness! ...+ wenn they will tell you the word has only weight trough the sounds+ letters.....it´s a lie!... mevlana celaleddin rumi ya wadud ichdina-s-sirata-l-mustaquim

» Delete this message ° Post Reply ° Email User ° User's Other Postings 17447 Nov.15.2004 12:59 PM From Doreen ??? Sorry mi - you lost me with your last post.

Self control is having a spiritual backbone....and you can have self control and dance like a devrish....:-)

» Delete this message ° Post Reply ° Email User ° User's Other Postings 17456 Nov.15.2004 04:18 PM From miwuwei

well,who controls whom....thats mostly a trick of the head punching the rest around fitting his silly wishes!lol...let me whirl the zikhr gracefully surendering the flow without!

» Delete this message ° Post Reply ° Email User ° User's Other Postings 17480 Nov.15.2004 05:16 PM From ilogos can i join in? brought my violin!

» Delete this message ° Post Reply ° Email User ° User's Other Postings 17494 Nov.15.2004 05:53 PM From miwuwei

play up zigan!the travel has not end yet!

» Delete this message ° Post Reply ° Email User ° User's Other Postings 17504 Nov.15.2004 08:31 PM From shayne self control is freedom. because the self is totally controlled at all times.

all times.

this is division and splitting.

we are controlling the self with its freedom.

whatever.

dumb words. half the coin. the flip side also exists but the coin in one thing.

heads and tails.

» Delete this message ° Post Reply ° Email User ° User's Other Postings 17532 Nov.15.2004 08:54 PM From Doreen self control is freedom. I agree.

» Delete this message ° Post Reply ° Email User ° User's Other Postings 17540 Nov.16.2004 04:19 AM From miwuwei

self control is self delusion ...again!for the slow thinkers!...who is controling whom?!!!!!!

» Delete this message ° Post Reply ° Email User ° User's Other Postings 17573 Nov.16.2004 05:53 AM From 6-10 Chars

Self control is always present. The self is always in control.

Sadness, anger and confusion are roads. All roads come together.

» Delete this message ° Post Reply ° Email User ° User's Other Postings 17587 Nov.16.2004 09:15 AM From 6-10 Chars

Self always controls. Sad, angry, confused, happy... Roads and maps converge.

» Delete this message ° Post Reply ° Email User ° User's Other Postings 17607 Nov.16.2004 09:41 AM From 6-10 Chars

...haiku...

» Delete this message ° Post Reply ° Email User ° User's Other Postings 17610 Nov.16.2004 12:16 PM From miwuwei

dont confuse self+ ego!the flow is not "in control!"..it "is"!

» Delete this message ° Post Reply ° Email User ° User's Other Postings 17630 Nov.16.2004 04:42 PM From 6-10 Chars

Ah, yes. Maybe flow = Tao? Everything becoming.

» Delete this message ° Post Reply ° Email User ° User's Other Postings 17654 Nov.16.2004 05:17 PM From miwuwei

yes,taoflow!life!

» Delete this message ° Post Reply ° Email User ° User's Other Postings 17657 Nov.17.2004 12:57 AM From Master Zen the limitless freedom fears; not having, not knowing, not being

» Delete this message ° Post Reply ° Email User ° User's Other Postings 17683 Nov.17.2004 08:43 AM From ilogos 'limitless freedom' is without fear...don't be fearful of facing your own fear!

» Delete this message ° Post Reply ° Email User ° User's Other Postings 17717 Nov.17.2004 02:27 PM From fatnhappy my death .

» Delete this message ° Post Reply ° Email User ° User's Other Postings 17848 Nov.17.2004 02:52 PM From ilogos difficult to conceive of!

» Delete this message ° Post Reply ° Email User ° User's Other Postings 17853 Nov.18.2004 09:13 PM From the d.o.m. From 6-10 Chars zen-zen, here's the story: the question: "What does the 'limitless freedom' fear?" the questioner: the d.o.m., site administrator. the response: Only d.o.m. knows for sure the meaning of the words "limitless freedom." As administrator of this forum, d.o.m. also has "limitless freedom" over its existence. Also, if nobody posted anything at all, then the forum would cease to exist, so all of us together also have "limitless freedom." Therefore, "limitless freedom" fears for d.o.m.'s love of Zen understanding and teaching. That is why limitless freedom fears only stillness, and d.o.m.'s disciples hunger for him more than air.

Mr 6-10 Chars, You did too much imagination here.

» Delete this message ° Post Reply ° Email User ° User's Other Postings 18107 Nov.18.2004 09:21 PM From the d.o.m. From shayne, "yes your right the mind does not have to point. it can rest. not move and be unmoving still emptiness.

Mr Shayne, If someone says that the mind is not moving, then he got his head into a bucket of paint.

If someone says that is not still, then he also got his head into a bucket of paint, too.

» Delete this message ° Post Reply ° Email User ° User's Other Postings 18108 Nov.18.2004 09:25 PM From the d.o.m. From ajraab limitless freedom fears the perception of fear which is truely limitless bondage

Mr Ajraab, You have good words, again.

» Delete this message ° Post Reply ° Email User ° User's Other Postings 18109 Nov.18.2004 09:34 PM From shayne in other words......it all changes. the mind noticing this does not cling. the changing is changing. but the changing is not mind.

mind still.

life changing.

the mind noticing this points at this. but cling too it wont. letting it go as another thought pattern. another simple introspection into life it is.

» Delete this message ° Post Reply ° Email User ° User's Other Postings 18110 Nov.18.2004 11:18 PM From Lionel But where is our so called still 'mind' that can sees all things as they are? Anyone has any clue or idea... here? I know perhaps this is just a wondering or silly inquiry. If it is not worth discussion, please just ignore it! Thanks~~~

» Delete this message ° Post Reply ° Email User ° User's Other Postings 18129 Nov.18.2004 11:19 PM From Lionel But where is our so called still 'mind' that can sees all things as they are? Anyone has any clue or idea... here? I know perhaps this is just a wondering or silly inquiry. If it is not worth discussion, please just ignore it! Thanks~~~

» Delete this message ° Post Reply ° Email User ° User's Other Postings 18130 Nov.18.2004 11:24 PM From Woodsman The answers don't always come as words.

» Delete this message ° Post Reply ° Email User ° User's Other Postings 18131 Nov.19.2004 08:49 AM From 6-10 Chars

Lionel, mind is everywhere. Everything is mind. There is nowhere without mind, and no thing which is not mind.

» Delete this message ° Post Reply ° Email User ° User's Other Postings 18223 Nov.19.2004 10:19 AM From Lionel Lionel, mind is everywhere. Everything is mind. There is nowhere without mind, and no thing which is not mind. Really? But what make you say that? A tree, a flower, a stone has too? What mind do you talking about? Your? Thank you very much for kind rsponse!

» Delete this message ° Post Reply ° Email User ° User's Other Postings 18237 Nov.19.2004 10:37 AM From 6-10 Chars

from Lionel: "Thank you very much for kind rsponse!"

You're very welcome. Your question about mind is important to me, because that is the koan which frustrated me most. Different people have different ways of understanding, but you seem to be a scientist, so that makes it easy. When you see "a tree, a flower, a stone," what are you really seeing? You see neither the tree, the flower, nor the stone. What you are seeing is the light from sun reflected off the surface of these "things" which enters your eyes. As soon as it hits your optic nerve, it ceases to become light, and becomes neural impulses, which then travel further and are processed. At what point do the neural impulses become the tree, the flower, or the stone?

You see, this is a modern koan. I can give you the answer, but you will be confused until all labels lose their meaning. There are no neural impulses, no brains, and no trees, flowers, or stones which are not seen, heard, or in some way experienced. This is only the beginning, because even if you grasp this, there are other questions. What happens when people die? How can people communicate? What is the purpose of this dream? Good luck. These questions have answers, but I have written enough already, and I also have my own problems.

» Delete this message ° Post Reply ° Email User ° User's Other Postings 18241 Nov.19.2004 10:49 AM From miwuwei

my mum told me each little plant,flower ect...is painted by an angel!(my mum was painter!lol).....+the red sky in december,is coz of god baking cookies in his hudge kitchen for all angels!(thunder was explained as god moving the furnitures!)...i suppose thats enough chaos theory for now!hihih!

» Delete this message ° Post Reply ° Email User ° User's Other Postings 18248 Nov.19.2004 11:03 AM From Lionel Yes, friend! We all have problems with our mind & i don't know how it work in actual fact. At least you are better. First of all i am not educated enough to know modern science. But it is nice to discuss in term of scientific language cos this is the most common communication in school apart from religion & it is also generally acceptable to most of us here i suppose. My English is poor too but i just manage it.

To our mind business, it is indeed a very strange thing to describe or put in words. Through here i learn bit by bit & i think we are growing by sharing each other view! Just be patient i am sure you will see what to be seen as long as we are not doing off topic subject. i suggest we do one step at a time.

Thank you!

» Delete this message ° Post Reply ° Email User ° User's Other Postings 18257 Nov.19.2004 11:10 AM From Lionel Just wondering when our mind is perfectly pure, it is like rose like blade of grass & so forth? Like the saying a flower a world, a grass a buddha! But is it all beyond us?

» Delete this message ° Post Reply ° Email User ° User's Other Postings 18260 Nov.19.2004 01:09 PM From 6-10 Chars

from Lionel: "But is it all beyond us?" from somebody: "It is us, even when we are beyond."

» Delete this message ° Post Reply ° Email User ° User's Other Postings 18269 Nov.19.2004 07:49 PM From Lionel i wish & hope so! Thank you 6-10.

» Delete this message ° Post Reply ° Email User ° User's Other Postings 18291 Nov.19.2004 07:59 PM From Lionel FROM 6-10: What happens when people die? How can people communicate? What is the purpose of this dream? Good luck. These questions have answers, but I have written enough already, and I also have my own problems Why should we worry about when we die? We can't even know when we are alive on earth how the hell we know about after dead? Isn't it birth & death every moment? It is now or never! The wonderful song of Elvis Presley once the king of CAT. We all have enough our own NOW's problem. It is gone by the moment to moment? CHEERS & GOOD LUCK TOO~~~ Take Care!

» Delete this message ° Post Reply ° Email User ° User's Other Postings 18293 Nov.19.2004 08:28 PM From shayne this mind can make up its mind on how it wants to be. you see the thoughts affect mind.

but what views them?

you could say i.

but this is i looking at i.

always reflecting.

or looking.

i notice a upset stomach.

but is i the upset stomach or that which notices?

this question is the pondering thing.

this is still the outlooking in.

we could look inward but this is still looking.

we could look inside our heads for answers.

but this is looking inside our heads.

some say mind is everywhere.

well IF you look at everything.

so we could say i is looking at a upset stomach but in truth this is just i looking at what i is looking at.

the stomach ache is not i true. it is a thing looked at with emptiness. this emptiness is i.

we could also.

--------behold the i---------

awareness on a grand scale or the awareness that is presesnt without trying can be aware of i.

or

the awareness that is nowhere but everywhere pointing in all directions at once can be aware of i as much as thought and feelings ect.

so awareness of i on a including scale.

this awareness of a grand scale i speak of is our awareness nature we all share whch we cannot get rid of.

it hears all sounds....all thoughts...all impressions...all feelings all at once without trying.

all at once...without trying. without improvement.

well this is a conscious reflection i has looked at.

» Delete this message ° Post Reply ° Email User ° User's Other Postings 18295 Nov.19.2004 08:43 PM From Lionel Well i was reading Shurangama Sutra last night once recommended by someone closeby about the long conversations between Buddha & Ananda & the rest of course. Though they are black bean, but it sounds good & fresh to me, yet i couldn't quite understand yet. Therefore I was fast eye-tiring due to strain of long facing the screen. I put aside & went to sleep. Now i read your messages i feel a little bit better but still trying to disgest in the system... Thank you Shayne! Take Care~~~

» Delete this message ° Post Reply ° Email User ° User's Other Postings 18302 Nov.19.2004 09:02 PM From shayne your welcome lionel. though i dont know......that i make sense.

hopefully i can relate in laymens terms.

do i?

it would seem.

» Delete this message ° Post Reply ° Email User ° User's Other Postings 18309 Nov.19.2004 09:42 PM From Lionel Cos you are expressive & daring type, hopefully the admins of this board could lend us a torch... But i am confidence we can see even in the darkness...

» Delete this message ° Post Reply ° Email User ° User's Other Postings 18320 Nov.19.2004 10:10 PM From shayne haha lionel. i agree.

i have been my own light in the darkness. and the darkness.

lol.

» Delete this message ° Post Reply ° Email User ° User's Other Postings 18322 Nov.20.2004 04:07 PM From Lionel ...perhaps all mankind do see in the darkness afterall... ...cos if blind can see so do we... ...perhaps its nature is such like beginninglessly... ...perhaps you don't need lending a torch afterall... ...though it comes in handy to most of us who are needy... ...perhaps if only we continue walk on without responsing to the all creation arising...

» Delete this message ° Post Reply ° Email User ° User's Other Postings 18375 Nov.21.2004 10:56 AM From Lionel Good night!

» Delete this message ° Post Reply ° Email User ° User's Other Postings 18478 Nov.21.2004 12:28 PM From shayne we are each the torch. paying attention.

to it.

which is not just ourselves.

for it is i. and i is it.

seperate if looked at individually. togther two in one.

not one. not two.

» Delete this message ° Post Reply ° Email User ° User's Other Postings 18495 Nov.21.2004 05:13 PM From Lionel Nice one Shayne! Thanking...

» Delete this message ° Post Reply ° Email User ° User's Other Postings 18526 Nov.21.2004 05:44 PM From Woodsman what? he thought

» Delete this message ° Post Reply ° Email User ° User's Other Postings 18533

the d.o.m. & Visitors 11/12/2004


 



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